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The End of Industrial Society

palladiummag.com

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Re: The End of Industrial Society

#151

Post by AnimalMuppet »

zozbot234 wrote: post #102
woodruffw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Back in the times and places where noble titles were taken seriously as markers of increased social legitimacy, stripping people of them was an acknowledged thing. It was not an "acknowledged thing." It was a bloody, brutal affair. Men fighting for titles is probably the one thing that measures up to religion in terms of lives lost. And all of this before refuting the central point: the duke of some random duchy in…

That wasn't just men fighting for titles, it was quite literally men fighting for their turf. The modern equivalent would be an all-out war among drug cartels. Later on, with the onset of the early modern era powerful monarchies managed to check the violence and gradually turned noble titles into more of a social reward for public services rendered. This is the context that those who view "kings and aristocracies" po…

Well, that's an interesting point. Before we follow some far-right vision of restoring the nobility, we'd better find out exactly which version they have in mind. We'd also better think seriously about what constraints are going to be able to prevent it from turning into the worse version.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#152

Post by beaconstudios »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #141
tablespoon wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to remember the basic idea behind a lot of these word salads is that "We need to return to kings and aristocracy" and that "Of course I am a high iq intellectual who will be the nobility and not a feudal worker, why is there any doubt?". Everything starts making sense then. A real king would probably slaughter people like Thiel and his hangers on and take whatever money they have. The schadenfreude from se…

Do you have a source for the claim that Thiel supports a return to monarchy?

has Thiel ever specifically claimed to be a monarchist? not that I'm aware of - but he has close ties with Curtis Yarvin who is a technocratic monarchist, has explicitly expressed anti-democratic sentiment, and hangs around in a mixed crowd of paleolibertarians (a system which leads directly to the sort of hyper-capitalist corporate monarchies Yarvin yearns for) and crypto-fascists like Trump. His behaviour, the company he keeps and his stated beliefs all point to him being a reactionary.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#153

Post by stickfigure »

paganel wrote: post #31
stickfigure wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also nutty statements like this: > Americans and Europeans may at that point be de-facto barred from visiting China by their own governments ...which seems to indicate a lack of familiarity with the relationship between American+European governments and their citizens.

As an EU citizen I was de facto forbidden to enter other EU countries until relatively recently (because of the pandemic), not sure why do you find that conclusion far-fetched. Also, because I may want to actually visit the US sometime in the future I've been making a conscious decision not to visit Iran, for example (even though I find Iran to be a beautiful country, at least from the photos I can find on the web).…

Half of Americans think our visa/visitor/immigration regime is capricious and unfair, and the other half wants it to be worse. As part of the former group, I apologize on behalf of my countrymen. But Americans are not forbidden from visiting Iran and there is nothing the US government will do to me if I take a holiday there (and survive the experience).

Cuba seems a bit more on point, but it's worth mentioning that the point is not to prevent travel there, but to prevent money from flowing there. And even that's incredibly leaky - pretty much everyone I know has been to Cuba at least once. I should have included the full quote:

> Americans and Europeans may at that point be de-facto barred from visiting China by their own governments, so seeing the still-gleaming cities such as Shanghai and Guangzhou up close won’t be an option.

It's not like the US State Dept is afraid that Americans are going to realize the socialist paradise of Cuba. The only circumstance you could imagine US travel to China banned would be the kind of sanctions that prevent all economic activity with China first - which haven't even been applied to pariah states like Iran or Russia.

And it's worth pointing out that Europeans freely travel to Cuba.

The idea that the US government would prevent citizens from traveling to China because they're afraid that citizens will see it as some sort of gleaming paradise is nonsense on its face, especially to someone who grew up here.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#154

Post by JaimeThompson »

beaconstudios wrote: post #152
CryptoPunk wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for the claim that Thiel supports a return to monarchy?

has Thiel ever specifically claimed to be a monarchist? not that I'm aware of - but he has close ties with Curtis Yarvin who is a technocratic monarchist, has explicitly expressed anti-democratic sentiment, and hangs around in a mixed crowd of paleolibertarians (a system which leads directly to the sort of hyper-capitalist corporate monarchies Yarvin yearns for) and crypto-fascists like Trump. His behaviour, the comp…

"Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron."

Which he clarified this way after so much outrage.

"It would be absurd to suggest that women’s votes will be taken away or that this would solve the political problems that vex us. While I don’t think any class of people should be disenfranchised, I have little hope that voting will make things better."

[1] https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#155

Post by Apocryphon »

zozbot234 wrote: post #102
woodruffw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Back in the times and places where noble titles were taken seriously as markers of increased social legitimacy, stripping people of them was an acknowledged thing. It was not an "acknowledged thing." It was a bloody, brutal affair. Men fighting for titles is probably the one thing that measures up to religion in terms of lives lost. And all of this before refuting the central point: the duke of some random duchy in…

That wasn't just men fighting for titles, it was quite literally men fighting for their turf. The modern equivalent would be an all-out war among drug cartels. Later on, with the onset of the early modern era powerful monarchies managed to check the violence and gradually turned noble titles into more of a social reward for public services rendered. This is the context that those who view "kings and aristocracies" po…

These fancy historical metaphors should be put next to actual modern examples of monarchy in action: the British and European aristocracy and the covert power they wield and the hidden wealth they hoard, the House of Saud and other Gulf Arab royals and their excesses, and what is the ruling regime of the DPRK if not a virtual monarchy under the Kims?

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#156

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

pavlov wrote: post #100
donkeybeer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to remember the basic idea behind a lot of these word salads is that "We need to return to kings and aristocracy" and that "Of course I am a high iq intellectual who will be the nobility and not a feudal worker, why is there any doubt?". Everything starts making sense then.

It’s uncomfortable for the Thiel-funded new right movement that their dream state is essentially realized in present-day Russia, and they’re not able to explain how their ideas would lead to a different outcome. Protectionist policies, focus on national identity, celebration of traditional values and gender roles; a “national CEO” whose transformative powers transcend the slow, frustrating democratic machinery. This…

> It’s worth noting that the same arguments would apply to Canada. If the Thiel-funded right succeeds, they’ll eventually need a war to fuel the nationalist fire. Why not a reunification of the North American colonies? Canada is obviously controlled by decadent forces that need to be purged

That's silly. Canada is the loyalist colony. They are still part of the Commonwealth. If Theil is a monarchist, then surely Canada is more the good guy to him!

And we should question how "anti-Progressive" monarchism actually is. Given that the American Revolution was driven in large part by a desire to expand beyond the Appalachians (which King George III had banned with the Proclamation of 1763), and that the Empire banned slavery outright in 1833, a full 30 years before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, I think we can say that First Nations and enslaved peoples -- focus of core Progressive causes -- would have both been better off as subjects of the Crown, in a Loyalist America.

So maybe monarchism is good?

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#157

Post by rayiner »

mikewarot wrote: post #73
rayiner wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cause isn't adequately explained, but it's hard not to see the ramifications of the outcome everywhere you look. We live in a society that couldn't rebuild, if it had to, the New York City subway, or the Interstate Highway System, or the national electric grid, or numerous other features of industrialized 20th century America.

>We live in a society that couldn't rebuild, if it had to, the New York City subway, or the Interstate Highway System, or the national electric grid, or numerous other features of industrialized 20th century America. We live in a society which lacks the collective will to do such things. It's only after the knowledge required to do so is lost that it can't be done again. Unlike after the fall of Rome, there are machi…

> We live in a society which lacks the collective will to do such things. It's only after the knowledge required to do so is lost that it can't be done again.

You’re assuming that the social organization and culture required to do these things can’t be lost just like knowledge. I think that’s incorrect. It’s like how third world countries know what they should do to develop their economies—stop allowing government officials to take bribes, etc. But they can’t.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#158

Post by nradov »

stickfigure wrote: post #153
paganel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an EU citizen I was de facto forbidden to enter other EU countries until relatively recently (because of the pandemic), not sure why do you find that conclusion far-fetched. Also, because I may want to actually visit the US sometime in the future I've been making a conscious decision not to visit Iran, for example (even though I find Iran to be a beautiful country, at least from the photos I can find on the web).…

Half of Americans think our visa/visitor/immigration regime is capricious and unfair, and the other half wants it to be worse. As part of the former group, I apologize on behalf of my countrymen. But Americans are not forbidden from visiting Iran and there is nothing the US government will do to me if I take a holiday there (and survive the experience). Cuba seems a bit more on point, but it's worth mentioning that t…

The issue is that Europeans who have visited Iran are no longer eligible for the USA visa waiver program.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#159

Post by Apocryphon »

someguydave wrote: post #148
jonstewart wrote: post #41

Palladium magazine was founded by Wolf Tivy and Jonah Bennett. It is funded by Peter Thiel. Jonah Bennett previously worked at The Daily Caller and he resigned from Palladium when it was discovered he had authored some racist messages and was friends with various white nationalists. Samo Burja, the author, is undoubtedly a more serious and educated person. However, he promotes a “Great Founder Theory” which is not so…

Sorry, it is 2022 and simply labeling people as non-progressive is not interesting anymore.

Labeling them as crypto-monarchists is though. It’s actually a neat throwback to 2012 before the current polarized state of online discourse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6785801

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#160

Post by jonstewart »

rabite wrote: post #92
jonstewart wrote: post #41

Palladium magazine was founded by Wolf Tivy and Jonah Bennett. It is funded by Peter Thiel. Jonah Bennett previously worked at The Daily Caller and he resigned from Palladium when it was discovered he had authored some racist messages and was friends with various white nationalists. Samo Burja, the author, is undoubtedly a more serious and educated person. However, he promotes a “Great Founder Theory” which is not so…

>Jonah Bennett previously worked at The Daily Caller and he resigned from Palladium when it was discovered he had authored some racist messages and was friends with various white nationalists. This is the very definition of ad hominem -- you don't want to confront the messages of the essay, so you try to discredit it by highlighting that one of its authors had opinions you disagree with.

I have no need to discredit Jonah Bennett--he did a fine job of that himself--and moreover he is not the author of the article. I will concede that my comment skates close to the ad hominem edge, but knowing about the publisher (as with Murdoch, Sulzberger, and Bezos, for Fox, NYT, WaPo respectively) seems useful nonetheless, for while it may be noble to argue about and discuss the ideas in the article in good faith, it's also worth asking whether Palladium is edited and published in good faith.
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