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The End of Industrial Society

palladiummag.com

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Re: The End of Industrial Society

#121

Post by mike4ty4 »

Animats wrote: post #39

"Massive white-collar overproduction means the victory of sharp elbows over sharp minds." Some of the oil states have hit this in a big way. Egypt, for one. Egypt at one time guaranteed employment for all university graduates. That resulted in the government employing a quarter of the workforce. The US is around 14% government, and it's mostly local government - teachers and cops. In the US, this becomes about half t…

Ultimately what we need is not a "victory" over anyone, but rather something where 100% of everyone's need (food, water, shelter, and medical care) are met barring purely random accidents.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#122

Post by mike4ty4 »

dc-programmer wrote: post #112

Conservatives need to lay off the Marx and French post-structuralism, and maybe go back to Burke or something. The incongruence between the aesthetics and message of these articles causes confusion to readers because most aren’t familiar with dialectical materialism (and the ones that are see through the poorly executed subversion attempt). You can tell because a lot of the comments on these articles are complaining…

Conservatives using Marx! The IRONY!

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#123

Post by tablespoon »

pavlov wrote: post #100
donkeybeer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to remember the basic idea behind a lot of these word salads is that "We need to return to kings and aristocracy" and that "Of course I am a high iq intellectual who will be the nobility and not a feudal worker, why is there any doubt?". Everything starts making sense then.

It’s uncomfortable for the Thiel-funded new right movement that their dream state is essentially realized in present-day Russia, and they’re not able to explain how their ideas would lead to a different outcome. Protectionist policies, focus on national identity, celebration of traditional values and gender roles; a “national CEO” whose transformative powers transcend the slow, frustrating democratic machinery. This…

> Putinists love to make the claim that Ukraine isn’t a real nation (and Steve Bannon went on record to agree). It’s worth noting that the same arguments would apply to Canada. If the Thiel-funded right succeeds, they’ll eventually need a war to fuel the nationalist fire. Why not a reunification of the North American colonies? Canada is obviously controlled by decadent forces that need to be purged, just like Ukraine…

As an American, that just makes no emotional sense. My lifetime experience is that Americans just plain don't think about Canada much, and it wouldn't make much sense as a target for "a war to fuel the nationalist fire." Mexico makes far more sense in that regard. Canada (or at least parts of it) would probably be most useful as place for political enemies to be forced into exile.

I'm under the vague impression that Ukraine has a much more important place in the Russian psyche than Canada is in the US one. There are always important differences in the details with stuff like this, so it's not very enlightening to do a mad libs style substitution

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#124

Post by zozbot234 »

notahacker wrote: post #117
zozbot234 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of those who favor "kings and aristocracy" is more that we'll always have people around with more power than others (elites), and that formal transparency about who these people are ultimately improves accountability. Would you work for a faux "anarcho-tyrannyist" firm where you have no idea who the CEO is and who the managers are that can fire you or cut your salary?

> The idea of those who favor "kings and aristocracy" is more that we'll always have people around with more power than others (elites), and that formal transparency about who these people are ultimately improves accountability But this is of course palpable nonsense. The entire point of kings and aristocracy was to formalise the notion that the de facto elite was in fact a class of people so superior to everyone els…

There are plenty of people in current government who are de facto not accountable to the public. Sometimes that lack of accountability is even intended by design. Are Supreme Court Justices accountable to the public for their interpretation of the law?

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#125

Post by mike4ty4 »

ilaksh wrote: post #33
kkfx wrote: post #11

Hum, grumble mumble... We surely are at the end of a cycle in human development terms, witch means the actual society going to change in something new, BUT "Industrial Society" is not actually a society in humans terms. We have had countless "industrial society" in various different societies, from Japanese steel, China ceramic and shipping (far in the past), metallurgic industry from Celts, Roman industry, cord and…

So far yours is the only substantive response to the post (edit: although a few others popped up after I wrote this). I agree with most of the broad ideas you bring up which are insightful. However, the tone of your comment does not seem to be quite acknowledging that we are in reality now in a somewhat dire situation. Anyway I have a few questions. I too see many issues with "managerial/profit driven development" an…

Profit motives aren't inherently the problem; the problem is what is justified or not in pursuing them - in particular, how their pursuit comes to clash with morally-valued interests such as human and non-human suffering. E.g. in _my_ mind at least, there is 0 fundamentally wrong with, say, creating profit by solely using your own things and your own personal labor. The only thing that suggests otherwise is religious dogma. But when you start hiring others who must work or else starve, when you start to create enough waste above and beyond and so forth, that's where things start to become more complicated because you are adding the potential for harming someone or something else against its will into the mix.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#126

Post by mike4ty4 »

ilaksh wrote: post #33
kkfx wrote: post #11

Hum, grumble mumble... We surely are at the end of a cycle in human development terms, witch means the actual society going to change in something new, BUT "Industrial Society" is not actually a society in humans terms. We have had countless "industrial society" in various different societies, from Japanese steel, China ceramic and shipping (far in the past), metallurgic industry from Celts, Roman industry, cord and…

So far yours is the only substantive response to the post (edit: although a few others popped up after I wrote this). I agree with most of the broad ideas you bring up which are insightful. However, the tone of your comment does not seem to be quite acknowledging that we are in reality now in a somewhat dire situation. Anyway I have a few questions. I too see many issues with "managerial/profit driven development" an…

> people seem to fall back to some sort of centralized system like a scientific committee or centralized AI.

Maybe we should try to figure out how to create an AI "idea generator" that can probe idea space more freely and see if it can break us out of our thinking rut. IOW use the AI not to govern or control or have power over anything, but use it to inspire us and break us out of our boxes.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#127

Post by AlbertCory »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #96
shswkna wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A “big idea” that sounds abstract to a literal thinker, should be seen as a hunch or an intuition about a situation. It can never be explained in satisfiable depth to a literal thinker. Only in hindsight will it be obvious. You expect proof, or a literal pathway of thought and explanation, because it has served you well. This is the guaranteed route to proving an idea, if such a literal route exists. Such ideas are g…

You've hit the nail on the head with this. I often see "big idea" thinkers who I find to be brilliant, like Jordan Peterson, criticized, and I think a lot of that comes from literal thinkers who 1. apply a rigorous evidentiary standard when assessing their writings, when they should instead see them as well-articulated cases for a "hunch" and thus not expect them to contain proof for their theories, and/or 2. don't s…

I wouldn't put this guy on a par with Jordan Peterson. JP appeals to masses of people because he explains his ideas -- he doesn't prove them.

You can state a big idea, but then you have to illustrate it. That can be with hard facts, or it can be poetic, but there needs to be something.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#128

Post by Angostura »

mike4ty4 wrote: post #120
pavlov wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s uncomfortable for the Thiel-funded new right movement that their dream state is essentially realized in present-day Russia, and they’re not able to explain how their ideas would lead to a different outcome. Protectionist policies, focus on national identity, celebration of traditional values and gender roles; a “national CEO” whose transformative powers transcend the slow, frustrating democratic machinery. This…

An important question that needs asking is what happens if we run into a situation where that "slowness" of democracy gets more people killed and only a well-paced solution with some cadence to it could do the job (not "super fast", but like say a major change with a 1 year debate period and 10 year implementation period sustained steady progress)? Not arguing for a dictatorship, but out-of-the-box innovative thinkin…

I think we saw the answer to that in February/March 2021. Apart from the USA where the situation was politicised by a rather special president, most advanced democracies moved remarkably quickly to institute unprecedented emergency measures in theface of the pandemic. Democratic processes were temporarily simplified with the executive taking more power for a short time.

Re: The End of Industrial Society

#129

Post by tablespoon »

donkeybeer wrote: post #45
jonstewart wrote: post #41

Palladium magazine was founded by Wolf Tivy and Jonah Bennett. It is funded by Peter Thiel. Jonah Bennett previously worked at The Daily Caller and he resigned from Palladium when it was discovered he had authored some racist messages and was friends with various white nationalists. Samo Burja, the author, is undoubtedly a more serious and educated person. However, he promotes a “Great Founder Theory” which is not so…

You have to remember the basic idea behind a lot of these word salads is that "We need to return to kings and aristocracy" and that "Of course I am a high iq intellectual who will be the nobility and not a feudal worker, why is there any doubt?". Everything starts making sense then.

> You have to remember the basic idea behind a lot of these word salads is that "We need to return to kings and aristocracy" and that "Of course I am a high iq intellectual who will be the nobility and not a feudal worker, why is there any doubt?". Everything starts making sense then.

A real king would probably slaughter people like Thiel and his hangers on and take whatever money they have.

The schadenfreude from seeing that would be one of the few up-sides of finding myself under a new monarch.

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