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Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#171

Post by dehrmann »

linuxhansl wrote: post #162

> The managers were told they were being fired as part of an “organizational change,” Nit: That language implies that they were laid off, not fired. The timing is a stupid move from Amazon, and these employees will likely be able to make a good case in court. Being from Europe I have mixed feelings about unions here in the US... On the one hand I think they are essential to tilt the uneven power dynamic between emplo…

> The timing is a stupid move from Amazon

I'm starting to think these Amazon's timing is intentional, they'll go to court, _and they don't care_; the cost is worth it to send the message.

There's also a good-faith possibility that the management of this warehouse was legitimately bad and promoted poor working conditions that lead to interest in the union.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#173

Post by SahAssar »

linuxhansl wrote: post #162

> The managers were told they were being fired as part of an “organizational change,” Nit: That language implies that they were laid off, not fired. The timing is a stupid move from Amazon, and these employees will likely be able to make a good case in court. Being from Europe I have mixed feelings about unions here in the US... On the one hand I think they are essential to tilt the uneven power dynamic between emplo…

> unions seem to often go overboard with impractical demands and are more political than in Europe

Isn't that partially because the US such an insufficient level of social benefits from the state (healthcare, pensions, paid time off, etc.)? The unions wouldn't need to "go overboard" if an acceptable minimum level was guaranteed.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#174

Post by [deleted] »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #58

The correct answer to the Amazon Problem is to create an alternate organization that starts as a unionized workplace, and goes from there. E.g. Spain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation These problems mentioned in this thread are due to the greed of Capitalists. Period. Once the 'age of the Capitalist' is put behind us, and we move towards post-capitalism, then bs like OP mentions will be history.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#175

Post by WalterBright »

linuxhansl wrote: post #162

> The managers were told they were being fired as part of an “organizational change,” Nit: That language implies that they were laid off, not fired. The timing is a stupid move from Amazon, and these employees will likely be able to make a good case in court. Being from Europe I have mixed feelings about unions here in the US... On the one hand I think they are essential to tilt the uneven power dynamic between emplo…

When I worked at Boeing on the 757 gearbox design, at one point the box was put into a test rig to see how it would behave under load. I went out to the shop to in case any questions needed answering.

At one point, a bolt needed turning (don't recall why) and I stepped forward to do it. The shop union steward literally lunged in front of me, arms outstretched, to block me. He informed me that only a union mechanic can turn a bolt, and my job was to tell the mechanic (not the steward) to turn the bolt.

It was ludicrous. Evidently every job required 3 people - an engineer to tell the mechanic what to do, and a union steward to ensure the engineer didn't touch anything. Somehow this crazy system evolved.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#176

Post by KerrAvon »

throwaway12948 wrote: post #154
AndyKelley wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to Seattle from my hometown of Phoenix out of college for my "dream job" at Amazon. I started interviewing for other employment after just three months. I ended up quitting after eight months. Amazon is a horrible place to work. Six years is a lifetime there.

I have seen this sort of sentiment many times, and the narrative here aligns with the main thread. I also know a few in my circle who I respect and think very highly of, but only worked at Amazon for ~1 year, and all of these people have been very quiet about their experience at Amazon. Also, I understand that the leadership principles are taken very seriously. My question: How are the leadership principles used in a…

The problem at Amazon as I understand it is extremely darwinian stack-ranking. The leadership principles don’t address this. Even if you have a team of 10 senior high achievers by every metric, some percentage of them have to be managed out every N months. It’s absolutely insane.

If Apple did this, they’d never ship hardware or software updates.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#177

Post by csomar »

linuxhansl wrote: post #162

> The managers were told they were being fired as part of an “organizational change,” Nit: That language implies that they were laid off, not fired. The timing is a stupid move from Amazon, and these employees will likely be able to make a good case in court. Being from Europe I have mixed feelings about unions here in the US... On the one hand I think they are essential to tilt the uneven power dynamic between emplo…

See here

> tilt the uneven power dynamic between employer and employee towards the employee

With here

> unions seem to often go overboard with impractical demands and are more political than in Europe

Gives you Union Employee who grab the power from the actual owners of the company. The relation is now even worse: The Union leader have both power, and no skin in the game. At least the employers cared about the longevity of the company.

Unions don't solve the power dynamics. They just tilt it to a new side. Worse: They encourage the idea that force (strikes) can yield power/money; which is why countries with Unions degenerate.

Of course, someone here is going to get angry because of the "poor" employees and their work conditions.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#178

Post by zdragnar »

throwaway12948 wrote: post #154
AndyKelley wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved to Seattle from my hometown of Phoenix out of college for my "dream job" at Amazon. I started interviewing for other employment after just three months. I ended up quitting after eight months. Amazon is a horrible place to work. Six years is a lifetime there.

I have seen this sort of sentiment many times, and the narrative here aligns with the main thread. I also know a few in my circle who I respect and think very highly of, but only worked at Amazon for ~1 year, and all of these people have been very quiet about their experience at Amazon. Also, I understand that the leadership principles are taken very seriously. My question: How are the leadership principles used in a…

A small part of the problem that's I observed during my interview there is the person who interviewed me mentioned that the teams largely operate independently, and sometimes have competing ideas. First across the finish line wins.

Ultimately, this, I think, sets up a lot of perverse incentives. Engineers are encouraged to burn themselves out to beat their coworkers, and there's less value in maintaining a good product. Anyone who remembers the very early days of their cloud offerings could pretty easily see the results.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#179

Post by ganoushoreilly »

Kab1r wrote: post #172
lalaland1125 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlawful termination for what?

The National Labor Relations Act prohibits employers from firing employees for participating in union activities.

I don’t believe they were a part of forming or attempting to form the union, but we’re the management of the facility. Maybe I misread it. Maybe they have a claim because it’s highly likely they were let go because they did squash the attempts at forming a union?

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#180

Post by Jensson »

Kab1r wrote: post #172
lalaland1125 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlawful termination for what?

The National Labor Relations Act prohibits employers from firing employees for participating in union activities.

Is it really illegal to fire managers who failed to prevent unionization of the employees? Because that is what seems to have happened here.
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