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Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#151

Post by colinmhayes »

adra wrote: post #80
Sevii wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people blame unions for killing the American dominance of car manufacturing worldwide. And the general de-industrialization of the US. It was a big hit to peoples conceptualization of the country.

And yet countries the world over turfed the one protection against the race to the bottom, which are tariffs. The auto industry still exists in North America because tariffs are still in place. Any time there's a significant economic imbalance of incentives, only tariffs will 'level' out the desire to offshore. Unions may have been presented as the scapegoat and clearly they made raw profitability worse (by what marg…

Free trade makes the vast majority of people richer. Yes, our shitty automakers were saved, but now everyone has to pay much more for cars. And American cars are still trash compared to japanese/german ones.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#152

Post by wombatpm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #71
tyingq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical, because it seems like most of the anti-union activities are either dictated or run from HDQ. It doesn't feel like something where the local leadership was free to make their own plays.

> It doesn't feel like something where the local leadership was free to make their own plays. Firing managers where unionization happens encourages managers where unionization efforts are under way to make their own plays, whether this is formally allowed or not, whether by company policy or the law. Obviously, getting caught on independent, policy/law-forbidden, efforts would also have adverse consequences, so the i…

All managers/supervisors and above have to participate in yearly training on Positive Employee Relations. At the Fortune 300 company I was at, this was a 4 hour session taught by legal counsel. It covered what you could and could not say to employees about unions, what to do if you suspected union organization activities, and how to communicate the company line about how unions were bad without running afoul of the NLRB

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#153

Post by [deleted] »

AndyKelley wrote: post #133
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #11

> Several were veterans of the company, with more than six years of experience I think it's sad that we have an industry, where someone with six years' experience, is considered a "veteran." But it sounds like Amazon is sending a message to managers of other warehouses, to go as low as possible, to fight unionization. Expect things to get ugly.

I moved to Seattle from my hometown of Phoenix out of college for my "dream job" at Amazon. I started interviewing for other employment after just three months. I ended up quitting after eight months. Amazon is a horrible place to work. Six years is a lifetime there.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#154

Post by throwaway12948 »

AndyKelley wrote: post #133
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #11

> Several were veterans of the company, with more than six years of experience I think it's sad that we have an industry, where someone with six years' experience, is considered a "veteran." But it sounds like Amazon is sending a message to managers of other warehouses, to go as low as possible, to fight unionization. Expect things to get ugly.

I moved to Seattle from my hometown of Phoenix out of college for my "dream job" at Amazon. I started interviewing for other employment after just three months. I ended up quitting after eight months. Amazon is a horrible place to work. Six years is a lifetime there.

I have seen this sort of sentiment many times, and the narrative here aligns with the main thread. I also know a few in my circle who I respect and think very highly of, but only worked at Amazon for ~1 year, and all of these people have been very quiet about their experience at Amazon. Also, I understand that the leadership principles are taken very seriously. My question: How are the leadership principles used in a way that leads to such a bad experience?

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#155

Post by syshum »

ryoshu wrote: post #149
syshum wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big difference (and please correct me if I get UK info wrong, I am not an expert in UK Labor, I am versed in US Labor) that in the UK you have sector unions, not enterprise unions. A company may have employee's working under several unions, and I believe there are even competiting Sector unions that an employee can choose to join finding the union that best suites them In the US, typically, the is a 1:1 union, en…

You haven't been forced to join a union in the US - or pay dues if you don't join - since 2018 when the SCOTUS ruled against the practice ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus_v._AFSCME ). You could potentially start a competing union for, say, pipefitting, but the NLRB needs to approve it (federal agency). But now you are fighting management and a national union that already absorbed local ones over the last 150 yea…

That is a misinterpretation of that ruling, which applies to non-union members being forced to pay dues

Union Shops, where by in Non-Right to work States the union negotiates with the Employer (private not public) that all employees of the group will be represented by the employer the employer can still be required to force employees to join the union with in 30 days, normally this is an automatic process for "union shops"

Again this varies by state, and Right to work states can not have such a provision, however Janus decision DID NOT outlaw union shops.

Also none of your comment seems to refute or attempt to explain the differences between UK or other EU unions and US unions, which is the context we are discussion, gotcha technicalities do not go to this over all conversation which is the vast differences between how unions operate in the US vs other nations.

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#156

Post by GeorgeTirebiter »

colinmhayes wrote: post #150
GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #58

The correct answer to the Amazon Problem is to create an alternate organization that starts as a unionized workplace, and goes from there. E.g. Spain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation These problems mentioned in this thread are due to the greed of Capitalists. Period. Once the 'age of the Capitalist' is put behind us, and we move towards post-capitalism, then bs like OP mentions will be history.

> the greed of Capitalists It doesn't matter what economic system we are under. All people are greedy, and powerful ones will always exploit others for personal gain.

I am not greedy. Therefore, your statement is, verifiably, false.

And, it, in fact, matters substantially which economic systems we are "under" (note your own choice of phrasing). Said economic system is the water in which we fish swim. We can hardly see it, due to its pervasiveness; and it is constantly reinforced by the very Capitalist Corporate Media whose job it is to keep the brainwashing going.

Unions used to be pervasive in this country. My dad was a member of the USW (United Steelworkers of America) and many unfair and unsafe labor practices were checked due to union solidarity. (I am NOT saying unions are perfect in every detail, only that a properly functioning union is usually the better deal for the common worker.)

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#157

Post by GeorgeTirebiter »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #103
ceeplusplus wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That corporation doesn't seem particularly effective at capturing marketshare (a proxy for the combination of price and quality). Total revenue of $16B across 4 major industries makes it a tiny player. Goldman Sachs had $59B in 2021 revenues alone, nevermind all the other big banks. The Wikipedia article further says "comparatively low wages [for managers] can make it very difficult to recruit managers from investor-…

Are you a Capitalist? I need to know the answer to that question before I can produce a good answer. Thank you.

Well, I would presume so. May I suggest this short segment setting some groundwork for future discussion: https://youtu.be/Kiru1jZXuvA?t=1883

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#158

Post by GeorgeTirebiter »

coliveira wrote: post #99
kwhitefoot wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they explain VAG being the biggest or nearly the biggest car manufacturer in the world then? Strong unions are a big feature of the German industrial landscape. It's not unions that killed America dominance of car manufacturing it's the them versus us zero-sum attitude that pervades US life. Both the manufacturers and the unions in the US seem guilty in this respect.

The US is incapable of thinking outside of the "us versus them" box. For example, they don't see other countries as independent, they only see them as alies or enemies. It is a fifth grade mentality that permeates the whole country.

Fifth grade? Isn't that a bit generous?

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#159

Post by nimbius »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #146
nimbius wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree Its a common stall tactic for large businesses to fire leadership after a Union is formed. It means you cannot facilitate a good faith negotiation and places the union in a perpetual limbo that can last years.

Good point. I was unaware of this tactic, but it makes sense. Thanks!

If you're wondering what the play from unions is after this, its "unexpected" equipment breakdowns and coordinated slowdowns because you now generally lack the leadership necessary to fire people or lead failure/productivity investigations

Re: Amazon abruptly fires senior managers tied to unionized warehouse

#160

Post by WalterBright »

SrslyJosh wrote: post #130
WalterBright wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to go as low as possible On the other hand, it could be to not give the workers a reason to unionize.

LOL, LMAO

I see you think this is a win-lose system. Free markets, however, are a win-win system. Both parties must win for the transaction to happen.

The employer-employee relationship is just another transaction, and should be win-win. If a manager sees it as win-lose, he should be fired. The same goes for an employee.

I've been an employer and an employee, and always recognized that it should be a win-win relationship and approached it from that angle.

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