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The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

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Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#161

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #125
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely true, which is why people at the tip of the spear are always well-rewarded, but also incredibly stressed. Not everyone can deal with stress, and even those that "successfully" deal with it, often break down, earlier in life than others (Look for old pro football players, or old pro wrestlers, for instance). Congratulations! You're rich! Which is good, because you'll need good nursing care, in your…

I for one very much hope we don't get to a Gattaca-style society! That movie doesn't leave me with a particularly positive view of such a system, but maybe that's just me.

I agree. Speaking as one that is far from perfect, I'm almost positive that I would have been flushed down the toilet, rather than be born.

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#162

Post by jseban »

hn_version_0023 wrote: post #159
jseban wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you here in general, and I think this is part of the definition of civilisation. But I still think the way it's phrased in the parent is wrong, that it's a "flaw" and "what's wrong with society", if it's actually a function of nature. I think it's still important to acknowledge what is part of our nature, and even if we can improve on that, it probably doesn't work to go too much against it, or deny it.

I suppose it’s worth noting that my phrasing was a direct response to “greediness isn’t a flaw of the system, it’s a core value” I do think it’s a flaw. Its an overreach to say it’s the singular cause of all the worlds problems, but boy does it seem like it sometimes! Now I’m left wondering something I’m sure philosophers have grappled with better than I can: can a creature’s inherent nature be wrong ? Are right and…

I think the failure of communism more or less proves that greed is not just an accidental flaw of the system, but rather an amplification of our natural selection, and as such cannot just be suppressed or removed, because it removes too much of our driving force.

> can a creature’s inherent nature be wrong?

Yes I think it will always be morally wrong, because it will be selfish and greedy at it's very core.

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#163

Post by imtringued »

mrow84 wrote: post #127
caffeine wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Elon, by virtue of his massive wealth now, is depriving an ungodly amount of people of financial resources and opportunities. That doesn’t make any sense at all. His wealth isn’t made up of financial resources and opportunities that other people could have used - his wealth is the price that other people would be willing to pay him to own shares in the companies he created. I think it’s a common misconception ou…

Even if you believe that: 1. the wealth of such people corresponds solely to an increase in the pool of available wealth (as opposed to just redistribution from other people), and 2. that increase is solely attributable to them, it remains true that the distribution of the wealth pool is an arbitrary social choice. Billionaires being billionaires deprives other people of resources, by definition.

1. saved money does not necessarily represent an increase in wealth. A rich individual can save against the will of the rest of the population. When you remember that total debt = total credit (savings on your bank account) then you are basically keeping people waiting and making them unable to pay their debts back.

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#164

Post by justinlloyd »

marttt wrote: post #135
justinlloyd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason I won't listen to music or wear noise cancelling headphones in the workshop. I wear ear protection, that dulls the damaging frequencies, but I want to hear when the drill is biting or about to skip, I want to know if the table saw is struggling or if the cutter head on the router is biting a little too deep.

Several forestry workers I know used the same argument: while working with a brush cutter, they prefer not to use a FM headset because it would distract them away from also hearing what the machine's engine is doing. I personally have also felt less concentrated and more mentally tired while trying to simultaneously cut brush and listen to music (let alone an intellectually challenging podcast). As a tinnitus suffere…

Bench Dog protectors with the built-in ear plugs, plus 3M muffs. I have pretty bad tinnitus from my musician days and spending too long listening to the drummer pound as hard as he can "because he just wants to be heard."

When I hit a nail in some salvage wood, or the moisture was a little higher than I estimated, I want to know about it before it becomes a problem. You can feel the slip, and hear the fence creak on the saw long before you get a kickback. Only ever once had a kickback because someone distracted me as I was cutting.

The rule in the workshop is: You don't talk or call to the guy operating any kind of machine or power tool, even handheld. You get in clear line of sight, and wait for him to acknowledge you. You don't signal or wave or point.

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#165

Post by hn_version_0023 »

jseban wrote: post #162
hn_version_0023 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it’s worth noting that my phrasing was a direct response to “greediness isn’t a flaw of the system, it’s a core value” I do think it’s a flaw. Its an overreach to say it’s the singular cause of all the worlds problems, but boy does it seem like it sometimes! Now I’m left wondering something I’m sure philosophers have grappled with better than I can: can a creature’s inherent nature be wrong ? Are right and…

I think the failure of communism more or less proves that greed is not just an accidental flaw of the system, but rather an amplification of our natural selection, and as such cannot just be suppressed or removed, because it removes too much of our driving force. > can a creature’s inherent nature be wrong? Yes I think it will always be morally wrong, because it will be selfish and greedy at it's very core.

I’ve enjoyed this little exchange and you’ve given me some things to think about. Thanks!

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#166

Post by batguano »

esaym wrote: post #4

>Technology robbed workers’ of what had been highly valued physical knowledge about a job: the precise way to jimmy a stuck gear, the sound a machine makes when something’s about to break. There's an experience that lives rent free in my mind as well. As a teen, I worked at a bait shop that was on the Gulf coast. They sold mostly live shrimp but had other live stuff for bait as well. Salt water was pumped from the ne…

Reminds me of the classic joke: A surgeon is at home, and the plumber comes to fix his sink. The plumber works for 15 minutes, the sink is fixed, and he hands the surgeon his invoice.

“$850?” the surgeon exclaims, in shock. “I’m a surgeon and I don’t make that much!”

“Yeah,” says the plumber, wistfully. “I didn’t make that much when I was a surgeon, either.”

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#167

Post by galaxyLogic »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #36
cameronh90 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People definitely slack off a lot in tech, but I think it's because it's a semi-creative process. Personally, I find if I've got a very clear road ahead of me with few complex decisions, I can just steam ahead, maybe for 12+ hours with few distractions. However, when it gets into the weeds, it's harder to keep going like that. Spend a little while thinking, have a break, read the latest tech news, walk around a bit,…

I have the same experience. I could go ahead and start implementing. But that means committing to a particular design. The first design that comes to your mind is typically not the best at all, why would it be. Therefore I feel hesitant to start coding it right away. Give the design-ideas some time to boil a bit in my head while perhaps focusing on something else. The better designs then typically pop up and that sav…

The key is to keep in mind what is the current problem you are looking a solution for. Then here and there while you're eating or even watching TV ask your brain the question "What could possibly be the answer to this problem?". As if by some magic it is often the case that the brain then comes up with hey maybe the solution could be found by exploring this territory further ..."

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#168

Post by nitwit005 »

burntoutfire wrote: post #80
noduerme wrote: post #46

Funny. I just had this conversation about ennui, probably not an original one, with a colleague who told me she wrote a thesis on ennui in college: Why did George Jetson go to work every day? Was it just to have a reason get away from his family? Wasn't the goal of that society that no one had to work, and everyone could be creative and leisureful all the time? Did George want to buy a newer robot? Was he cheating on…

> What's going to happen to everyone when there's a universal basic income and nothing to do but doomscroll... are they really going to become artists? Why not just consume media all the time? That's what most of unemployed people are doing at the moment, they aren't creating art. Besides doomscrolling, there's infinite amount of tv series and video games to consume very cheaply. In a world of abundance, more expensi…

They are creating art, just mostly not the sort that requires a ton of skill. Someone is making all the meme posts, taking cute cat photos, uploading amateur writing, and so on.

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#169

Post by inglor_cz »

koonsolo wrote: post #85
caffeine wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s true on average might not be true for certain individuals, and power-law mechanics might make those individuals more significant than everyone else who makes up the average. Like imagine Elon Musk works 80 hours a week and he doesn’t suffer any negative consequence, he just becomes the most productive human ever according to the market. And then a bunch of other people work 80 hours and they do suffer burnout…

I'm pretty smart and a hard worker. I have a Masters degree in computer science. I can do about 4 to 6 hours of concentrated work per day. I never seen anyone do more or better. I know plenty of people who claim to work a crazy amout of hours. But in the end it always turns out they are deceiving themselves. I don't know Elon, so maybe he is different. But in the end, I'll believe it when I see it.

Around 30 years of age, I was able to pull off productive 10-hour days, but three in a row or so. Definitely not for weeks.

Re: The diminishing returns of productivity culture (2021)

#170

Post by inglor_cz »

goodpoint wrote: post #160
testcase_delta wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree with your point, but I think it doesn’t take the following in to account: Wealth is not a fixed sum. The global GDP increases over time, which I interpret has new wealth being created. If Elon hadn’t created his businesses, his wealth wouldn’t be in the hands of other people, it just wouldn’t exist. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-gdp-over-the-last-t... I also assume that over 1 or 2 generat…

It's very well understood that making a product can create surplus value. This is basic economics. Contrarily to simply robbing someone else, which would be 0-sum (if not negative). However if the product is being sold you are still taking someone's money. If you wanted to purely increase wealth for everybody you would be giving away the product for free. Many no-profits do that. (duh) Yet, the tradeoffs are complex…

"You are assuming that such workers would have all been unemployed if Musk did not exist, which is very unlikely."

No, they would work, but would they be more productive in those other jobs? Possibly not.

I wonder what would happen if current engineers at SpaceX were suddenly "redistributed" to Boeing or Blue Origin. Maybe they would raise the technical aptitude of those companies. Or maybe not, maybe the companies would grind them down to their corporate level.

You can demotivate smart people and reduce their creativity to almost zero by insisting on idiotic corporate rules and punishing them for "transgressions" (e.g. innovation that wasn't approved beforehand). They will still be working in highly qualified positions, but their collective effort won't be as productive.

It is notable what a big portion of contemporary technology is attributable to relatively small organizations (such as Bell Labs) which were able to motivate smart and creative people to do their best.

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