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Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

thedetroitbureau.com

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Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#171

Post by slg »

refulgentis wrote: post #161
slg wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s both, right? The competitors may very well be just as safe in those conditions, but we wouldn’t know based on their liability stance; the Fight Club equation simply doesn’t apply. I was referencing Fight Club as an example of an auto manufacturer making a life and death decision based off their financial incentives and not the best interest of the customer. The decision to take on liability is about money, not…

> I was referencing Fight Club as an example of an auto manufacturer making a life and death decision based off their financial incentives and not the best interest of the customer. The decision to take on liability is about money, not confidence in safety. The Fight Club scene is about how these two things are integrated: their confidence in safety defines their ability to choose to take on liability. Yes, its inten…

This real life example is more complicated than the Fight Club version. It includes more variables like the added sales I mentioned and all these variables are unknown. How can you draw conclusions about one variable in a formula in which you don't know the value of any of the variables?

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#172

Post by stavros »

Traster wrote: post #60
lorenzfx wrote: post #20

While the specs sound very underwhelming at first (geo-fenced on some roads, very low speeds, no bad weather), they seem to be so confident in their system, that they will take responsibility for the car when in autopilot. AFAIK, no other manufacturer does this for their systems (which capabilities they often make rather wild claims about).

Just from a management perspective, even if you're super-confident in your engineers (which you shouldn't be), doing anything other than a very limited slow roll out would be negligent. This is a tectonic shift in liability. It's one thing if you sell 1,000,000 cars and 100,000 get in an accident. It's actually much worse to sell 10,000 cars and 1,000 of them get in an accident and the company is liable .

Oh man, I didn't expect to read a comment saying "it's OK if 100 times more cars have accidents as long as a company isn't liable".

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#173

Post by judge2020 »

scrozier wrote: post #26
mdoms wrote: post #18

[flagged]

I own a Model 3 and love it. But you're 100% right: the "full self driving" claim Musk/Tesla has been making for years is bizarre. I live in a major city and have never had a trip using FSD where I didn't have to take control multiple times. At times, updates seem to make it get worse. Simple example, on a highway, it can't even keep the car in the middle of the lane through moderate curves. It almost always drifts t…

> using FSD

Unless you mean FSD Beta, Autopilot is just lane keep and adaptive cruise control, and doesn't take turns for you. Even if you bought the $12k option you don't have the beta until you reach that 98% or better safety score and opt in.

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#174

Post by [deleted] »

hooloovoo_zoo wrote: post #137
ksubedi wrote: post #73

What most people here complaining about the "40 mph" limit do not realize is that below 40mph is where it's hardest to implement proper self driving, as majority of below 40mph driving will be in city streets with pedestrians, frequent turns and more variables. Anything higher will generally be in highways where lane assist cruise control systems are already more than good enough. I will gladly take a system that can…

I really don’t think they’re more than good enough on highways. Even teslas still veer over when they encounter on-ramp-merges.

[deleted]

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#175

Post by autoexec »

filoleg wrote: post #38
na85 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think Teslas driven by fleeing fugitives, OJ Simpson style, can't be remotely commandeered or disabled, then I have a bridge to sell you. Geofencing is a big part of the dystopia that the Valley crowd is getting paid a small fortune to shove down our throats.

> If you think Teslas driven [...] can't be remotely commandeered or disabled, then I have a bridge to sell you. I wonder how this is even remotely possible, given that Teslas can easily operate fully offline (which they frequently do in areas with poor cell reception). You can just build a small faraday cage encasing the modem so that it cannot receive signal, and you are good to go. Also, I don't think that the dri…

> I wonder how this is even remotely possible, given that Teslas can easily operate fully offline

It's been possible for over a decade with regular cars. OnStar can remotely disable cars. Many cars have devices that remotely disable the engine if the driver fails to make a payment.

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#176

Post by autoexec »

llbeansandrice wrote: post #158
loueed wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wondering how would they prevent the faraday cage solution? I guess the OEM could disable the car if it cant phone home but surely that would lead to accidents e.g. blocking the modem while driving.

Probably just say the car won't start if it hasn't phoned home in a certain amount of time. Attempt to phone on start-up, shutdown if it can't. You don't have to rug-pull while the car is active. I could see this being a "feature" of leased vehicles for example since you don't own it. Tesla's should be fully functional currently, it's the self-driving that's a subscription.

> I could see this being a "feature" of leased vehicles for example since you don't own it.

that feature has existed for over a decade. Miss a payment and your engine can be remotely disabled.

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#177

Post by tra3 »

stavros wrote: post #172
Traster wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just from a management perspective, even if you're super-confident in your engineers (which you shouldn't be), doing anything other than a very limited slow roll out would be negligent. This is a tectonic shift in liability. It's one thing if you sell 1,000,000 cars and 100,000 get in an accident. It's actually much worse to sell 10,000 cars and 1,000 of them get in an accident and the company is liable .

Oh man, I didn't expect to read a comment saying "it's OK if 100 times more cars have accidents as long as a company isn't liable".

That's not really what the OP is saying though, is it?

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#178

Post by I_DRINK_KOOLAID »

judge2020 wrote: post #167
01100011 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, they've had self driving ready to go next year since 2014( https://youtu.be/o7oZ-AQszEI ). Why so cynical? :)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856861 The claims up until 2018 were met. 2018 is when Tesla got the hang of Model 3 production, so their value now had to come from promises like FSD beta.

> 2018

The Saudis should have had come through.

In a rare moment of clarity Musk self-diagnosed and understood that he can't be trusted with a public company. He takes the stock price (and generally everything that impacts or perceived as impacting the stock price) too personally.

His best work was when he was at the helm of a private company out of the public eye. Unfortunately I think he became addicted to attention and can't go back.

All the former members of the PayPal mafia became addicted to being high ranked generals in the culture and political wars raging in across the country.

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#179

Post by doctor_eval »

stavros wrote: post #172
Traster wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just from a management perspective, even if you're super-confident in your engineers (which you shouldn't be), doing anything other than a very limited slow roll out would be negligent. This is a tectonic shift in liability. It's one thing if you sell 1,000,000 cars and 100,000 get in an accident. It's actually much worse to sell 10,000 cars and 1,000 of them get in an accident and the company is liable .

Oh man, I didn't expect to read a comment saying "it's OK if 100 times more cars have accidents as long as a company isn't liable".

I read the parent as meaning to say that because Mercedes will be liable, even 1,000 accidents will be a real problem for them. This is a good thing because it shows that Mercedes expects a very low number of accidents while the system is enabled.

Mercedes accepting the risk like this is a massive step forward for these reasons. It sets a precedent that hopefully others will follow. They wouldn't transfer the risk if they didn't think it would profit them.

Re: Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll

#180

Post by judge2020 »

themacguffinman wrote: post #164
simondotau wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quoting someone who is egregiously misquoting and misunderstanding what Elon said in that recent earnings call. What he actually said: Of any technology development I’ve ever been involved in, I’ve never really seen more false dawns, or where it seems like we’re going to break through but we don’t as I’ve seen in full self-driving. And ultimately what it comes down to is that to solve full self-driving, you a…

I don't see the misunderstanding. Most of what you quoted is irrelevant, he said two key sentences: "And so actually, when you think about it, in order to solve full self-driving, we have to solve neural nets and cameras to a degree of a capability that is on par with, and will really exceeds humans. And I think we will achieve that this year." The meaning seems pretty clear. He says they will achieve "that", "that"…

The real way to achieve level 4, in the Tesla software, is to improve its decision making AI. You'll pretty much never spot the neural network not detect something in all of the public FSD videos, at least when it's important to the operational safety of the car (the objects on the screen don't always match up with the NN since they likely have an renderable object budget). Where it always, always fails is in deciding "is is safe to turn right now" or "can i pull into the center of the divided highway for my unprotected left yet".
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