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Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

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Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Population of the US is effectively flat over the last two years. In California it actually declined. And new home construction is at an all time high. Scarcity of inventory is not at all the same thing as scarcity of housing. This has been a powerful narrative in driving FOMO buyers though. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UNDCONTSA

Population may have flattened, but a toooooon of people were looking to move suddenly to new areas, which is another way that scarcity is created. Your chart is the number of units under construction, but that high number doesn't translate into more new homes than ever before, because completions have been massively delayed. So there's a lot of homes sitting half finished as they wait for supply chain crunch's to res…

Also a lot of those homes are tear down/replace vs. net new

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#682
post #493
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think tenants should be protected if, eg, their income drops due to a layoff or unforseen medical expense. They should stay if they can't pay? Who takes the loss? It would be sensible to have a government program to help people in such circumstances. But if you'd be asking for the landlord to just take the loss, that's not sensible. The owner is probably barely breaking even on rent vs. costs, so they can't a…

Given the house for rent is an investment, it’s obvious who should be taking the loss: the investor.

> Given the house for rent is an investment, it’s obvious who should be taking the loss: the investor.

That seems like a statement that feels good, but what should be the desired outcome for the benefit of society?

If you make taking a loss being the norm for a landlord, the outcome won't be having landlords grin and bear it and a city full of happy renters.

No, the outcome will be landlords will stop renting out since it doesn't make sense to take a loss. So the availability of rental units will dry up.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#683
post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do that for pharma companies. [1] The system you purpose is not a loss some times, it is a system that can be abused all the time. Who says landlords aren't losing money? I am currently taking a loss. Two units are rent control at 600 per month, the third at 2300 hasn't paid in ten months with an eviction trial next week, I am in the last unit. I will be shutting down the property and using it as a single family h…

Landlords are losing money in regions with strong tenant rights. That's good. Some landlords should lose money.

You're putting landlords should lose money before there should be abundant and affordable housing. Landlords still lose money, these policies remove housing from the market, cause distortions, and lead to the luxury / affordable split.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#684
post #652
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes building housing expensive is policy, not a lack of "cheap land". I am flummoxed every time the discussion of housing prices shows up. Seems like 95% of everyone who comments is completely clueless to the most basic aspects of it. In the vast majority of Western regions, high home prices are caused by a deliberate decision not to allow building enough homes to match demand, in the places where people wan…

I agree with current zoning and permitting is harmful. I can't wait for a better urban life here, with services and amenities in proximity, which more homes closer together would enable. I don't think it will meaningfully reduce cost of home ownership. Infill development is more expensive, and the dynamics at play (if I'm correct) are moving to a European model. Generally pointing in a direction of demand having real…

Fertility rates are dropping, and national population growth is slow across the West -- the problem is generally where the housing is rather than how much there is in aggregate. Old estates in the hinterlands are cheap, that's not where the wealth transfer is happening. Google will yield you some fantastic estates across the UK and Western Europe costing less than half of a modest 2br ranch-style home in Palo Alto.

> I don't think it will meaningfully reduce cost of home ownership.

More housing would absolutely meaningfully reduce the cost of home ownership. Just look at cities like Detroit and Pittsburgh that, for a time, had a surplus of housing and a declining population: houses became super super cheap.

What's happening now is that housing stock is increasing 0.5% per year, while city population is increasing 5% per year, and then policymakers are turning around and saying "look, we're building more housing, and prices keep rising, it's not working!" -- of course, because cities need to build enough housing to satisfy demand, not just "more housing". Each year we have a new housing deficit, the housing "debt" goes up. To reduce prices, you need to build more than the demand is, which we are so far from doing it is laughable.

> Infill development is more expensive

This, too, is per policy. The sweet spot price-wise for construction costs alone is 4-5 story apartment buildings; outside parts of SF, Manhattan, and a few other inner cities, we aren't there yet. But the cost of infill development these days also includes (1) drafting environmental impact reports; (2) multiple sets of meetings with neighbors to convince them not to oppose your plans; (3) delay and stalling tactics from well-heeled neighbors who oppose your plans anyway (see: CEQA); (4) extensive requirements on insulation, window area, solar panel inclusion, etc. that push costs upwards; and finally (5) years of paying property taxes while you attempt all of the above to get your plans approved. That's leaving out (6) extremely high labor costs for construction, because construction workers need housing too, and their rent is also super high.

We are not going to see meaningful change until we remove at least some of the constraints on housing construction and new supply can begin to exceed new demand. In California, lawmakers are starting to wake up to the problems, but solutions are slow to come.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#685

The sooner we collectively decide that housing shouldn't be a market, the better. We all need it, and we should figure out mechanisms to make it available to all. Practically that means paying to build and maintain housing stocks, changing tax incentives so developers are incentivized to build more housing and less luxury housing, charging a premium for unused land in desirable areas (parking lots don't house people)…

It's a market that needs to have preferential treatment for "first homes" and not for speculative hedge funds.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting 4 months to see my GP for a physical in Wisconsin.

In Europe they don’t even normally have physicals! The NHS has never just checked up on me like that - they just couldn’t afford to do it.

NHS Health Check is the equivalent of the Medicare Annual Wellness Visit. It's recommended every five years, starting at age 40, for people without pre-existing conditions.

For people with pre-existing conditions it begins at a younger age and is recommended more frequently, based on the determination of your GP Surgery.

You should get your first invitation to an NHS Health Check around the time of your 40th birthday.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/nhs-health-check/what-is-an-nh...

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landlords don't need to raise prices. They want to. We all want to have more dollars than everyone else and landlords are no exception.

Disagree that this is a universal desire. We don't all want to have more money than everyone else. Plenty of us just want to have enough money to live modestly and comfortably.

You might, but most people do and creating policies/laws that they don't is naive and won't work.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#688
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you are unaware of all the money people pour into their homes - renovations, furniture, upkeep, maintenance. People spend all kinds of money on nice things, but nothing comes close to the home itself. There will always be a market for this.

My home is currently valued at 1.7m. I'm acutely aware of the cost of owning and maintaining a home. But "homes have costs" does not axiomatically lead to "housing must therefore be a market."

No, but people want nice homes and are willing to spend a ton for it.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#689
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that commoditization is a scale, I would say it could be toward that end of the spectrum if we wanted it to be. Commoditization is only a scale inasmuch as the underlying goods are fungible. Corn is a commodity because nobody cares about differences between individual kernels, but if some process came around that only worked with super-specific kernels, then you'd be reducing the commoditization of corn. I ca…

Those are things you're attaching because of privilege though. One visit to China will give you a view of just how much housing can be commodtized. Endless rows of apartment buildings, each identical, supplying everything you could need. If you're without a home, one house is very much like another. It's only once you have money and ambition that you might want a better view, better schools.

Treating something as if it's a commodity does not make it a commodity. Treating two things as if they're equivalent does not make them equivalent.

You might say "your right to choose between houses is a privilege", but literally every culture in the world is going to observe differences between two houses, regardless of how they're allocated.

Even considering buildings where every unit has an identical layout, and all residents have access to the exact same amenities, one unit might be closer to the elevator and one unit might be closer to the garbage chute. These are fundamental differences between these units which make them not interchangeable.

> Endless rows of apartment buildings, each identical, supplying everything you could need.

"Providing everything you could need" is not how we define commodities. Fungibility is how we define commodities. One can argue that we should just be thankful with whatever home we get, but trying to act as if they're equivalent is just wrong.

Re: Homes in 97% of U.S. cities are overvalued, Moody's says

#690
post #493
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think tenants should be protected if, eg, their income drops due to a layoff or unforseen medical expense. They should stay if they can't pay? Who takes the loss? It would be sensible to have a government program to help people in such circumstances. But if you'd be asking for the landlord to just take the loss, that's not sensible. The owner is probably barely breaking even on rent vs. costs, so they can't a…

Given the house for rent is an investment, it’s obvious who should be taking the loss: the investor.

Which makes investing riskier and therefore it receives less investment (supply) causing rental prices to increase.
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