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Tailscale raises $100M

tailscale.com

341–350 of 468 posts

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really a competing product until they relaunch it with a heavy consumer focus and with some of the properties that Tailscale has, ie: avoiding going through the cloudflare CDN. But more to my point, cloudflare is definitely in a position to outcompete Tailscale, it’s just a couple tweaks and a marketing shift.

I don't think Tailscale will focus on the consumer market, I'd be very surprised at least if they did. I think they built a developer-friendly product to get mindshare and early adoptors, but eventually the real market for such such products is in the B2B space, i.e. implementing the "BeyondCorp" model of zero-trust networking. There's also a market for building cloud mesh services but I'm not sure if Tailscale is we…

You're not wrong but they do seem to want to keep focusing on consumers (not just developers), teams, and enterprises all at the same time but market [0] the product differently.

> If we're going to fix the Internet, there's no point only fixing it for big companies who can pay a lot. That misses the point of the whole adventure. The Internet is for everyone. We have to fix it for everyone, or why bother? We knew we had to design a business model and a technical architecture that removes any incentive to abuse your privacy. Providing an ever-expanding free tier is how we help as many people as possible.

> ...

> Tailscale's go-to-market strategy is what we call bottom-up growth, or product-led growth (PLG). An earlier name for this is "GTM 3.0", which is explained beautifully in a presentation by Adam Gross... To summarize: in GTM 3.0, you give away an unlimited free tier for individual use (Not a trial, a free tier; this is what makes it different from GTM 2.0). Then, for collaboration in small teams, you charge a bit. Then, for big company control and auditability, you charge even more. At each level, the value proposition is different, so that users use your tech differently and benefit differently from it. And at each level, the buyer is different, so the messaging is different.

From tailscale.com/blog: How our free plan stays free, https://archive.is/R7jqw

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing_mix

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#342

Tailscale has a fantastic product, I’ve been extremely happy from day one. If you’re waiting for a weekend to have a few hours to try out Tailscale, don’t, it takes 15 minutes to get every device you own up and running and talking. This is the lowest friction personal VPN to ever exist, and once you see how easy it is for your own devices, you’ll wish you had it at work. The biggest risk that this company has is that…

I think your last point is what many of us are hoping Web3 really is

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#343
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means you can self host all kinds of things and never worry about opening a port on your router.

As long as you don't need to share any of your services with non-Tailscale users. Otherwise you'll need to set up some sort of public server.

But you can also try to get them to be Tailscale users and effortlessly share the devices with access control features they built. I share my home servers and game servers with family/friends easily while still keeping everything off the public internet.

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#344
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really like the direction [1Password] is heading I thought customers were complainingly loudly against their new direction of making 1Password an Electron app. Is that not the case? Note: I'm not a 1Password customer.

Removing the ability to use it in a non-saas (local vaults, vaults shared by other syncing solutions) capacity is what drove the final nail into the 1password coffin for me. I can't trust that they don't hold master keys to all the vaults on their saas offerings. The swap from native to electron on macos was hugely disappointing but something I could have probably lived with if they hadn't gone full saas no alternati…

> I can't trust that they don't hold master keys to all the vaults on their saas offerings.

So you think they could be lying about their fundamental selling point, and hiding it in all of their audits? Personally, I'd trust them more than Apple/Google/etc.

https://support.1password.com/1password-security/

https://1passwordstatic.com/files/security/1password-white-p...

https://support.1password.com/security-assessments/

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#345
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that Tailscale was pretty interesting. Avery Pennarun, its CTO, is somebody whose judgment I am used to trusting. Then I learned that to use it, I would be dependent on authenticating using a login on one of the unaccountable internet behemoths who could take away my account for any random reason or no expressed reason at all. No, thank you.

Yes. If they can’t build basic auth and make sure it’s secure, it sends quite the message. Super annoying and borderline unacceptable.

They don't want to build basic auth. They probably could, but it gives them more headaches and customer service touch points compared to delegating that out. Like: what if the user forgets their password? Or what if they lose their 2FA device?

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#346
post #180
post #124

I was going to try TailScale but then it seemed the only option to do so as an individual was to login with a 3rd party cloud provider, which I in no way want tied into my networks. I gave up and just setup wireguard directly instead, I don't trust Tailscale either if that's their attitude towards privacy, it's permanently marred my vision of their product.

Your personal dislike of cloud SSO is not the same as "their attitude towards privacy". Before you do anything "permanently" you should read their reasoning behind that decision: https://tailscale.com/kb/1013/sso-providers/ > Tailscale works on top of the SSO/IDP/IAM identity provider you or your company already use. > We don’t support sign-up with email addresses. By design, Tailscale is not an identity provider: th…

Requiring you to disclose info to google, microsoft, okta or onelogin can very clearly be an "attitude towards privacy", right?

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#347

Tailscale has a fantastic product, I’ve been extremely happy from day one. If you’re waiting for a weekend to have a few hours to try out Tailscale, don’t, it takes 15 minutes to get every device you own up and running and talking. This is the lowest friction personal VPN to ever exist, and once you see how easy it is for your own devices, you’ll wish you had it at work. The biggest risk that this company has is that…

"Being based on open source wireguard, and being just a STUN/TURN server at its core... I'm sure that Tailscale will be the first but maybe not the best."

I like this assessment. "[J]ust a STUN/TURN server at its core." It gives me hope maybe more people are starting to learn how to look at peer-to-peer not as something that is unreasonably complex and off-limits to ordinary users. LAN-like connectivity is not just for offices and gamers.

Of course, following a STUN/TURN standard is just one approach to a rendezvous server. It isn't the first or last approach to have worked.

By "rendezvous server" I mean a program that accepts connections and saves each client's address and open port number and makes this data available to other connecting clients, thereby allowing one client to connect directly to another client without involving the rendezvous server. The server needs only to tell clients about IP addresses and port numbers, nothing more.^1 Thus it can be a relatively small, relatively simple program.^2

I hope that going forward there will be even more choice in small, open source rendezvous servers, not created for commercial purposes, that ordinary users can run on globally reachable IP addresses. Most users must "lease" these addresses from others. Because not every user has a globally reachable IP address available, the use of "hosting" and now what people today call "cloud" services has been necessary.

Enormous amounts of traffic are passing through these third party "cloud" providers. They are, to use a popular term, "gatekeepers". Business customers, including ones who already control globally reachable IPv4 address space, let alone individual customers without such resources, are effectively beholden to them if they want to be on the internet. Not only that, the services are generally expensive.

However no data needs to be sent to or received from a rendezvous server other than address and port information. If customers are charged based on ingress/egress, it could be affordable for users to run these small programs on a "cloud server" due to the smaller amount of data transfer. With less data being sent to these third party providers, the privacy concerns would arguably be reduced as well (cf. eliminated).

The ability to connect devices directly over a network, including the internet, should not be monopolised like so many other aspects of the computers and the internet today. It should be available for everyone. The only cost should be paying for the globally reachable IP address and a tiny amount of traffic required for running a rendezvous server.

1. The advantage here is that the program can be easier and quicker to compile and users may be more inclined to read the source code and, optionally, make edits and recompile. Non-commercial, not a complex program like a web browser that is prohibitively slow to compile that almost no one compiles for themselves, nor one that few people have both the aptitude and inclination to read, edit and improve its source code.

2. Yes, there can be exceptions. For example, in some cases two clients using the same ISP might not be able to reach other directly. But these cases are the exceptions, not the rule.

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#348
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. If they can’t build basic auth and make sure it’s secure, it sends quite the message. Super annoying and borderline unacceptable.

They don't want to build basic auth. They probably could, but it gives them more headaches and customer service touch points compared to delegating that out. Like: what if the user forgets their password? Or what if they lose their 2FA device?

Yes, welcome to operating a SaaS.

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#349

Tailscale is my favorite (product) discovery of 2022. I initially set it up to use as a VPN to get around a misbehaving corporate firewall and accidentally realized it solved a whole bunch of other problems I didn't realize I had. Usually a new product doesn't even live up to the intended use case and so TS is really anomalous IMHO in how good it is. - SSH'ing into a raspberry pi I have at home that does random IoT s…

But HOW can this work? It MUST have config level access to each machine, that's the only way I can see this working. I guess I just have to try it to see.

It's a really neat piece of software - you're right that it does have the ability to configure your system, routing tables in particular.

The Tailscale agent (thing that runs on your machine) changes the system routing table (at least on Linux) and uses policy-based routing (marks packets destined for the "Tailnet" specially) to build the overlay network. Since everything is done at L3 in the OSI model, iOS and Android clients (in the form of an app) are also available without needing root (jailbreaking).

There are some things it can't do owing to the whole thing operating at L3, but it's a really awesome implementation nevertheless. And just to add, they aren't the first to build a product like this, but they do it incredibly well and the time to value for most users is extremely short, made even better by the fact that the expectation is that the time to value will be long(ish) and painful.

Re: Tailscale raises $100M

#350
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ve been dreaming lately of a tor-like network that’s based loosely on the idea of tailnets. Rather than blockchain bullshit, you’d have a direct ring of trust with friends, and then you could set up access policies to forward packets for people you don’t trust, but who know someone you do trust. Might want to check out Yggdrasil. It lets you can create a real mesh routed, E2E encrypted network. You can keep your…

Thanks, I thought I knew all the major mesh VPN options (tinc, nebula, tailscale, zero tier, hamachi) and yet I never heard of yggdrasil. This is the kind of comment I love HN for!

Here's one more: https://fastd.readthedocs.io/en/v22/index.html
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