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The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

warp.dev

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Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#101
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try having a family as a sole earner on 200k in the bay area. Or new york.

Is this a joke? What is median household income for families in both of these cities? Fairly sure it's below 100k.

> What is median household income for families in both of these cities?

What is the median credit card debt for them in these cities?

What is the median annual savings for them in these cities?

Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you worry about being hit by a bus before you have FU money? Personally I'd rather work half time for twice as many years than try to race to retire. A lot of responses seem to be focused on high cost-of-living areas, which is kind of a chicken-and-egg problem. If you want to be a moderately checked out person, living in a smaller city and stretching your giant bay area salary is the way to go. If you want to be a…

I’d rather work twice as many hours per year for half as many years. It’s not that one choice is obviously dominant over the other across all people.

Yes, given "getting hit by a bus" is a probabilistic event that is independent of my working hours, I would rather make 2x for half as many years, all other things being equal. I'd also rather make 3x for a third as many years, and so on, if it were possible. Given time value of money and compounding interest, it's always better to front load your working time and make Nx for 1/N as much calendar time worked.

And for the controversial part: The above is why I think it's insane to, for example, take 1-2 years of not working, early in your 20s, to go see the world and "find yourself." Those 1-2 years, if spent earning, could mean retiring an extra 3-6 years earlier.

Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#105

The author did a really good job of pointing out problem of promo culture, but the solutions suggested are more inspirational than actionable. All founders/execs/early employees are easily aligned on compabt success. But how do you align incentive of later hires? In order to reduce time spent on perf, you'd have to rely on a few people who knows an employee's work instead of a larger peer group and committee. The per…

This echoes my read of this article as well. Any system for promotion has tradeoffs. You can't just say "this system's tradeoffs suck, we should have a new system with no tradeoffs."

I'll admit, I don't really have a good solution. My strategy has been to just stick to early-stage startups where everyone is aligned on company success. Would love to hear some more meaningful discussion of alternative systems for managing career ladders.

Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are counting on that job to always be there for one thing.

In the boom time there's an unending appetite for mediocre engineers to inflate headcount, making managers look good (more reports) and companies look good (to investors). In the bust time, I don't think even the smartest people will be safe, and the top of the ladder may well be pruned more aggressively because they're expensive. Having positive reviews may protect you, but being high in the org won't.

Depends on how high. You don't want to be in the "off in the corner" research group which is usually comprised of very high level engineers (senior or staff level or higher). You definitely don't want to be high up in the middle tier either. What you want is to be known to your Vice Presidents and above. That's when you reached "high enough" to avoid the great cull.

I witnessed this more times than I can count.

Otherwise its all balance sheet calculations and maybe your manager can pull a punch or two if the product area is critical enough.

Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#107
post #89
post #82

Quoted post unavailable.

Seems pretty sexist to associate solving hard problems with masculinity. Women at Google also work on hard problems.

The sexist part is not the "hard problems" but the competitiveness. I don't think sexism is intrinsic to solving hard problems - certainly gender-inclusive companies work on hard problems successfully. But in my experience those companies tend to be more collaborative.

Google needs to celebrate heroes. Like Jeff Dean. Or Sanjay Ghemawat. Those are Great Men. They are "Living Gods" because they solved Really Hard Problems. Getting into that class of people requires being a "lead" which necessarily means other people around you aren't leading. So you need to prove why you're worthy of being the "lead" which means proving the others around you aren't. This is toxic masculinity. Not solving hard problems.

Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#108
I work at Google and the who promotion culture is very toxic. People are incentivized to "Launch" things just in time to get promo and only to abandon it or switch teams in search of the next promo. It also gets hypercompetitive and harms teamwork sometimes. The promotions are usually B.S. anyway, they add stress and usually remove a good functioning engineer from doing good work into more "non technical leadership" work.

The Truth is, people really want promos for the extra money and more stock. I say, just give them the extra money and stock privately, and only promote people when there's a job to be filled for that position.

Re: The Google incentive mismatch: Problems with promotion-oriented cultures

#109
In my experience most of the perf-review is a show.

Promos typically have a "pecking order", determined by how long you have been asking for one (or performing at the next level if you have some meritocracy), the amount of budget available for promos this time, your age (easier to promote "mature" people), D&I status, proximity of ethnicity to your managers biases (could be implicit, doesn't matter for the outcome), height (tall people promoted easier), introversion vs. extroversion, and just if your manager likes you.

Also they ask you to give vague, subjective snippets that will be weaponized against your colleagues in form of "feedback" for the next 6-18 months.

So it's better to not partake in this type of time wasting activity.

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