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Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

nature.com

51–60 of 191 posts

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Pits can bite and shake because they have ridiculous jaws and a powerful build. If a miniature poodle tried, it wouldn't have much effect. They got that way because humans designed them that way intentionally with selective breeding. It's not so much "they do X because Y" than it is "they do X because they were designed to do X, and Y is the result of that design."

For sure, but again, that's a characteristic that is enabled by a physical difference. Literally nobody here is saying there's no physical difference between breeds of dog.

You would be surprised. I worked with a fellow that wouldn't acknowledge that there is a height difference in the average man's height and the average woman's height, because "everyone is different and there's no such thing as an 'average' man and an 'average' woman." To people that reason that way, anecdotes trump averages, and a very small pitbull and a very large corgi are proof that patterns are meaningless.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#52

The Siberian silver fox study makes it very difficult to avoid the conclusion that behavior (e.g. tameness) in canines is a heritable trait that can be selected for. Beginning in 1952 wild silver foxes have been bred in Siberia selecting solely for friendliness. Notable changes were found after 6 generations. By the 30th generation, 70-80% of the selected population were "domesticated elite", which "are eager to esta…

Heritability of traits is a really messy and difficult problem. Sere, you can breed tameness into wild foxes, but that doesn't mean you can easily breed more tameness into already tame foxes/dogs. There might be some low-hanging fruit that's easy to exploit and after that, it's mostly random chance and the environment that determines things. But that again depends on what the environment is like - if all dog owners routinely raise their puppies in the same extreme way, their inherited differences might either be invisible because none get the chance to express them, or even more significant because that's the only factor left that can sort out how they respond to their environment.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#53
> But, as Karlsson points out, “anyone who’s owned eight dogs from the same breed will tell you all about their different personalities”.

Even within a single litter, you can obviously track different personalities. The bigger dominant ones to the submissive runt. The more dominant or adventurous ones will come up to you while others remain a bit back and the runt remains all the way back.

> Particularly low was the connection between breed and how likely a dog was to display aggressive behaviour, which could have implications for how society treats “dangerous” dog breeds

Even within a litter, there will be more aggressive and less aggressive. And it isn't just "aggressiveness" that determines how society treats "dangerous" dog breeds, it's the size and ability to cause damage. Every pitbull owner will shout from the rooftops that a chihuahua is more aggressive than a pitbull and more people are bitten by chihuahuas than pitbulls. Of course they completely ignore the fact that a pitbull's bite will cause far more damage than a chihuahuas.

> Breeds as we think of them today — distinctive canines such as beagles, pugs and Labradors — are a by-product of more recent evolutionary meddling. Starting around 200 years ago, dog enthusiasts in Victorian England began inventing breeds by actively selecting for canine traits that they found aesthetically pleasing.

But dog breeds go back far thousands of years. Are they limiting dog breeds to just the last 200 years? Even so, certainly you can predict some behavioral differences between a labrador and a beagle. Of course being dogs they will share a lot of common behaviors like wagging the tail, sniffing each other, barking, etc, but certainly there are differences.

> But, on average, breed explained only around 9% of the variation in how a dog behaved, a number “much smaller than most people, including me, would have expected,” says Karlsson.

What did she expect? Dog breeds to behave 100% differently from each other?

> “We talk about breeds like they’re categorically different,” he says. “But in reality, that’s not the case.”

They are categorically different. Also why does the article talk about behavior then switch to personality then to temperament as if they all mean the same thing.

We have too many eaters in academia, media, etc. Nothing of value in the article. This study and article is a fine example of "publish or perish". People who have nothing to say or contribute but forced to say something and waste everyone's time because they need to justify their paychecks. This is why I support UBI. Cut down on the useless and wasteful white collar busy work.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#54

this is political dogma. there is a strain of dogma asserting that behavior is 100% nurture. if they accept the idea that breeds of dog have certain traits then they would be forced to reconcile with the hypothetical concept that different races of humans have different inherent behaviors or ways of thinking. people complain about science being under threat but i never see people talk about this particular dogmatic l…

Yep. It's stifling fore sure. Even the guy who discovered DNA (Watson?) got some awards retracted because of saying that. You definately can't trust any research showing that behavior is not heritable or that there are no cognitive differences between races.

One study even found clear differences between races but then wrote a conclusion saying the opposite! They justified that by discovering another variable they'd forgotten to control for that they guessed might have been responsible for the difference instead of race.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#55
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence They didn't put out a paper saying the sky is red, they put out a paper saying the magnitude of impact from breed on dog behavior is substantially less pronounced than previously thought. It is not rational for you to double down on this belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy The headline does not say "substantially less pronounced than previously thought". The headline says "breed does not predict behaviour (nature.com)". Any fool who works with dogs will tell you that yes, it ruddy well does.

Not a Motte-and-bailey fallacy, because I said the paper, not the linked article about the paper.

And no, the "headline" (called a "Title") of the paper published in Nature says, "Ancestry-inclusive dog genomics challenges popular breed stereotypes".

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? It just means people teach pitbulls to attack other people. Ban pitbulls and those people will teach some other breed to attack.

Pitbulls have been banned in various places. Any data to suggest this phenomenon has happened anywhere that pitbulls are banned?

Pitbulls are not banned in areas where pitbulls are a problem, so no.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#58

To be frank, this "study" is absurd & invalid, and there is 100% an association between breed and behavior (we literally breed dogs for certain behavioral traits!). On that topic, I realize it's controversial but think pitbulls should be banned outright - they are responsible for the majority of fatal dog-related attacks and there is a wealth of evidence indicating that they are not a desirable breed. https://www.red…

To add to this here's a recent systematic review looking at rates of dog bites by and bite severity by breed. Consistently Pit-bulls and German Shepherds have higher likelihood of causing biting injury against people and have increased severity of injury [0].

Anecdotally, so far I have only seen bite injuries in the ER from Pit-bulls and German Shepherds (n That being said, whether or not breed specific legislation works to minimize dog bites is a separate scientific question.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30579079/

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#59

The Siberian silver fox study makes it very difficult to avoid the conclusion that behavior (e.g. tameness) in canines is a heritable trait that can be selected for. Beginning in 1952 wild silver foxes have been bred in Siberia selecting solely for friendliness. Notable changes were found after 6 generations. By the 30th generation, 70-80% of the selected population were "domesticated elite", which "are eager to esta…

Heritability of traits is a really messy and difficult problem. Sere, you can breed tameness into wild foxes, but that doesn't mean you can easily breed more tameness into already tame foxes/dogs. There might be some low-hanging fruit that's easy to exploit and after that, it's mostly random chance and the environment that determines things. But that again depends on what the environment is like - if all dog owners r…

One can start with an already tame population of foxes/dogs and select for aggression. Aggression would be a useful trait in a breed desired for protection/guarding.

Re: Study of pet dogs shows breed does not predict behaviour

#60

This is one of those studies where the conclusion is so obviously wrong that I don't even want to open it, and it makes me discount the credibility of Nature overall.

Trusting your gut over a paper published in Nature. Bold move! Some people would use this as a moment to question what they know about dog breeds, but you choose to double down on your beliefs. Very human of you! [0][1][2][3] [0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-pathways-experie... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance [2] http://aphilosopher.drmcl.com/2015/12/11/doubling-down/ [3] https://…

Strange how over thousands of years we've been able to selectively breed incredibly specific variety in canine physical form but we've been completely unable to breed for specific behaviors... /s
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