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Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

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Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#11

Post by oh_sigh »

Were they fired because they challenged the findings, or were they fired for their behavior after being told their paper wasn't up to snuff for some reason?

Same thing with Timnit...was she fired(or "resignation accepted") because of a paper she was writing, or was she fired because of her behavior after being told the paper needed more review(or whatever)?

I really doubt that Google is so wrapped up in the "computer designs chips better than humans" paper that they are firing anyone who sows dissent. A much more parsimonious explanation is the dissenter was welcome to dissent, but behaved in a fireable way after being told other people don't agree with them.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#12

Post by SubiculumCode »

prepend wrote: post #5

I think this a challenge that seems pretty obvious as scientists working for for profit organizations that don’t have binding ethical frameworks aren’t really free to pursue truth. Just like you wouldn’t expect an Exxon staff scientist to be free to publish a paper independent of Exxon. I think that people who want to properly practice science should avoid working for corporations. Academia and government aren’t comp…

Agreed. We need to support increase funding and pay for public scientists. It is not even remotely competitive to the private market, and it is frustrating to know that I could earn substantially more if I left my academic research position.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#13

Post by verisimi »

xadhominemx wrote: post #6
mcdermott wrote: post #2

In the corporate world, just like government funded research, science is only science if it aligns with the desires of its funding source unfortunately.

I never experienced anything like this during the course of my government funded research. Nor did I hear of anyone else experiencing anything like this. Of course, your topic area has to align with government funders’ interests… but in my experience the conclusions do not.

But if your conclusions do not align with the funders desires, would your research see the light of day?

If you have that much money that you can fund lots of studies, the only ones that will proceed are the ones in support of whatever-it-is.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#14

Post by yodon »

mcdermott wrote: post #2

In the corporate world, just like government funded research, science is only science if it aligns with the desires of its funding source unfortunately.

You may want to spend less time reading anti-intellectual media and more time talking to people who actually do academic scientific research. There are many challenges in academic science, but it does a remarkably good job of not falling prey to the strawman risks you believe in. Corporate research is of course subject to the economic interests of the corporation. Academic research is not held back from publishing in the same way.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#15

Post by yodon »

verisimi wrote: post #13
xadhominemx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never experienced anything like this during the course of my government funded research. Nor did I hear of anyone else experiencing anything like this. Of course, your topic area has to align with government funders’ interests… but in my experience the conclusions do not.

But if your conclusions do not align with the funders desires, would your research see the light of day? If you have that much money that you can fund lots of studies, the only ones that will proceed are the ones in support of whatever-it-is.

> But if your conclusions do not align with the funders desires, would your research see the light of day?

If you are in academic science doing publicly funded academic research, as most academics do, then yes, your funding agency does want you to get the results published, period. The conspiracy theories you've been led to believe are just that, conspiracy theories, not the objective realities of those doing the work.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#16

Post by oh_sigh »

tedivm wrote: post #4

What really kills me is that Google claimed previous papers weren't up to their standard, but then ended up citing them in later papers that they've had press events around. It's really unfortunate that so much of our science is being done at large companies rather than universities, since the companies have a bias towards their bottom line which keeps them from publishing things that might damage that.

What papers are you talking about specifically? Were they reworked at all after being told they weren't up to standard? Does Google have a standard where only papers they would publish can be cited?

Imagine if Google had a standard that all papers they publish must be in Comic Sans font. Researcher refuses, publishes paper independently, and then someone at Google publishes a paper in Comic Sans referring to that paper. Is that wrong? After all, Google doesn't have a standard that all cited papers must be published in Comic Sans as well.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#17

Post by skoskie »

mc32 wrote: post #10
tedivm wrote: post #4

What really kills me is that Google claimed previous papers weren't up to their standard, but then ended up citing them in later papers that they've had press events around. It's really unfortunate that so much of our science is being done at large companies rather than universities, since the companies have a bias towards their bottom line which keeps them from publishing things that might damage that.

Universities have their own biases as well --whether it's to pad one's CV, the PI's CV, or whatever, but they are also not free from interference against 'pure' research. There is a lot of "garbage" research that happens at universities. Yes, we do expect quite a bit of research to be dead-ends --that's the nature of research, but there is a lot of research that is knowingly fraudulent or uses very suspect data and o…

Out of curiosity, are there any institutions that meets a “pure” research standard? NIST?

Or is that standard unattainable because undue influence exists everywhere?

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#18

Post by teakettle42 »

There is insufficient information here to make any judgement.

It’s clear that the journalists involved want us to make a set of suppositions that support their narrative about Timnit, but the reporting doesn’t support that conclusion — or really, any conclusion at all.

It’s vapor — outrage bait.

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#19

Post by xadhominemx »

verisimi wrote: post #13
xadhominemx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never experienced anything like this during the course of my government funded research. Nor did I hear of anyone else experiencing anything like this. Of course, your topic area has to align with government funders’ interests… but in my experience the conclusions do not.

But if your conclusions do not align with the funders desires, would your research see the light of day? If you have that much money that you can fund lots of studies, the only ones that will proceed are the ones in support of whatever-it-is.

If your topic area aligns with your government funders interests but your conclusions do not, it usually means you were working on a scientific dead end anyway

Re: Google fires another AI researcher who reportedly challenged findings

#20

Post by canaus »

skoskie wrote: post #17
mc32 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities have their own biases as well --whether it's to pad one's CV, the PI's CV, or whatever, but they are also not free from interference against 'pure' research. There is a lot of "garbage" research that happens at universities. Yes, we do expect quite a bit of research to be dead-ends --that's the nature of research, but there is a lot of research that is knowingly fraudulent or uses very suspect data and o…

Out of curiosity, are there any institutions that meets a “pure” research standard? NIST? Or is that standard unattainable because undue influence exists everywhere?

Influence exists everywhere because without influence the studies wouldn't exist in the first place.
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