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Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

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Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Who selects the censor? You might be ok with making speech restrictions.. but are you ok with a hardline opposition candidate doing the same? 2. Governments change Even a government that starts using a power - say restricting access to bank accounts - for something good like stopping actual terrorism or money laundering can decide to start using it against political movements they don't care for. 3. Governments gr…

Governments exist to protect those, who cannot protect themselves. If you do not give the government power to balance execution of human rights by restricting some of them in reasonable ways, the government will fail to protect vulnerable minorities and eventually your democracy will be destroyed by those, who will exploit the power of media to promote their agenda and to attack people, who have different ancestry, b…

The harm of speech is low.

Yes, people can say things that mean. People can say things that are wrong and misleading - and you may even believe them. Everyone has the ability to protect themselves from others speech - stop listening to them. This works even for very small children.

The freedom of speech brings with it the ability to ask for a redress of wrongs. It is how people can talk about alternative candidates. It is the most vital of freedoms because it is the foundation of the others.

Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#92

One calls it censorship, someone else calls it protection of democracy and freedoms, because freedom of speech is not absolute and not of higher priority than other human rights. Human rights are always in conflict with each other: today USA is deciding to violate right of property for Russian oligarchs because rights of Ukrainian citizen are violated. Right for free movement was restricted during Covid pandemic for…

The reason free speech is special is that it can be used to rescuscitate the other rights if they are infringed, at far lower catastriphic risk than, say, freedom to bear arms.

Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a precedent where this resulted in unlawful restriction of speech or it’s just a generic speculation? I had a look once at the form in one of Meta services to report hate speech: it does require some effort to fill the form and it does require the issue to be reported to police. If you don’t want to report the case to authorities, the platform will not take down the content. I do not see how this could re…

A few examples (though the reporting could be clearer): https://www.techdirt.com/2018/01/12/second-time-week-german-... https://www.dw.com/en/facebook-slammed-for-censoring-german-... Fortunately for the defenders of that law, the notoriously opaque censorship of social media companies helps hide what is going on, so few examples surface. I could not find anything as convenient as a list of (wrongfully or not) censor…

Your first two links don't support the claim. Twitter removed an impersonator spreading fake news.

Unlabeled satire posted context-free to Twitter where it gets interpreted at true and repeated, is a different complicated problem (and why Twitter is a fundementally terrible design).

Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#94
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even hiding potentially illegal speech (if you believe such a thing should exist) for some time creates considerable potential of abuse. A group of malicious political actors could still suppress opinions and thus make it appear that there is a public consensus on the opposing opinion. Especially with a state which has deliberately unclear and flexible (in the sense of 'rubber', not 'agile') laws, this is too big a r…

> potentially illegal speech (if you believe such a thing should exist) Child pornography, calls to violence etc. I think anybody agrees that, to some degree, things have to be banned. > (No such provision seem to exist against glorifying/justifying the illegal wars of aggressions which "NATO partners" have staged). The main reason no such provision exists is that there simply is no widespread movement to glorify, fo…

I really wish you had not brought up Child pornography. CP material is not speech, much like criminalised drugs are not. Hypothetically, the idea that CP media possession should be decriminalised, or what material should constitute (or not constitute) CP to begin with, or how to tackle the problem of child abuse (both generally and specifically when it comes to CP media production). And in fact, none of those opinions would be "criminal".

Still, bringing up CP often is unhealthy for a discussion. Too often it is the way of the political scoundrel, the wannabe-strongman, to throw the "think of the children" card (and then abuse the powers grabbed with that argument against unrelated activities).

> The main reason no such provision exists is that there simply is no widespread movement to glorify, for example the Iraq war.

There has been actual attempts to prosecute the Schröder government for preparation of and participation in a war of aggression (against Serbia), which was then cancelled out because "t'was a righteous war". Note how the law does not distinguish between 'righteous' and 'criminal' wars of aggression.

> Absolutely. I just hope some solution can be found, which actually works, because you can only through so many judges against bots, foreign actors etc.

We are not that far away from each other. We just disagree who the real danger, the real enemy is: bots and foreign actors (by the way: Freedom of speech also protects their freedom of speech, even the watered-down "freedom of opinion" of the Grundgesetz is not limited to 'Germans only'), or a - in the future potentially tyrannic - federal government. Given our history, I tend to see the danger at home, not abroad.

Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#95
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even hiding potentially illegal speech (if you believe such a thing should exist) for some time creates considerable potential of abuse. A group of malicious political actors could still suppress opinions and thus make it appear that there is a public consensus on the opposing opinion. Especially with a state which has deliberately unclear and flexible (in the sense of 'rubber', not 'agile') laws, this is too big a r…

> potentially illegal speech (if you believe such a thing should exist) Child pornography, calls to violence etc. I think anybody agrees that, to some degree, things have to be banned. > (No such provision seem to exist against glorifying/justifying the illegal wars of aggressions which "NATO partners" have staged). The main reason no such provision exists is that there simply is no widespread movement to glorify, fo…

>The main reason no such provision exists is that there simply is no widespread movement to glorify, for example the Iraq war.

Might also have something to do with the fact that German troops were and are still in Iraq no?

Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about intention and damages. Say Bob is an idiot, he publishes a video with a flawed experiment where he proves the Earth is flat. There are no damages and Bob really believes Earth is flat so a judge will not find this idiot guilty. Other case, Bill is is greedy bastard, he wants to sell some pills that make penises grow, Bill uses Phtotoshop to make a false medical diploma, Bill also creates fake stud…

That doesn't really address, though, the tobacco studies. Carefully selection of candidates, some p-hacking, and so on. There are numerous ways to put your thumb on the scale. It isn't just Dr. Nick faking up a degree. On top of it, you would need some kind of centralized registry, overseen by humans, of what is real and what is fake, for legal purposes. Once that Ministry of Truth exists, how do you get your MKUltra…

Yes, I can create on the spot a perfect law that address all the angless of fake misinformation, maybe you can contribute a suggestion like "all scientific papers will list the authors and who pays them, and discloses all conflict of interests and add giant fines for the authors and for the institutions behind the paper".

So we don't censor the papers, we force them to be even more transparent and make sure guilty people get punished, including maybe the individuals behind big companies( put Elon in prison if he signed of on some shity statistic that misleads people that his cars are 10x safer)

Re: Digital Berlin wall: How the German prototype for online censorship went global

#97
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because others are worse Germany's laws are good? I don't know but laws that allow someone to be locked up indefinitely without conviction don't sound like freedom to me.

What laws are you referring to specifically?

Bavarian Police Act
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