Live data from Hacker News

Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

backreaction.blogspot.com

231–240 of 282 posts

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a limited pool of resources available to do basic fundamental science and it's fair to argue that things like LHC have absorbed a disproportionate share of these scare resources, without a whole lot to show for it. Since it's the general public that ultimately funds these projects (unless the LHC can attract its own Jeff Bezos), I think it is OK to have a public discussion about it.

"Not a whole lot to show" from the LHC? We got the Higgs Boson, and piles of data providing more accurate measurements of fundamental constants in the Standard Model, along with a ton of progress in various "applied" areas related to developing the materials/tools for constructing the thing.

The possibility of Higgs appearing at LHC, but not any supersymetry partners, has a name among physicists: the nightmare scenario. The Higgs discovery (measuring its mass) wasn't unexpected, there were known symmetries and energy bounds that made it pretty much have to be there. Everything new LHC was supposed to discover has not appeared. That's not to say there's not good science happening there -- but many people (physicists) consider it disappointing. The purpose of building a collider that big and expensive is to find new particles.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#232

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

Yeah I would say that there are two means in which it does.

1) Direct means: this is stuff like finding helium in the sun, and from there being able to see its signature and find it elsewhere (we can say this for other atoms and molecules too). Stopping nuclear war, due to tracking the proper origin (and providing an explanation) of the source of gamma bursts. Studying reactions in nature and then attempting to replicate them on earth (fusion is an obvious example but there are others). These tend to be kinda weak if we don't include things like justification to go to space, which is iffy either way.

2) Indirect means: These are probably providing the most value. This is pretty true for any advance science though. When you're pushing the extremes of our knowledge you have to invent new things to measure and test. You might say that these could be built by industry, but the thing is that these are often extremely expensive. So one can also think of science as a means for governments to inject innovation into their economies. You need to detect a star really far away? Well you're going to also be building cutting edge mirrors, radio instruments, and other things. Want to detect gravitational waves? You got to write code that is really good at detecting noise and differentiating a signal that is smaller than fp64 precision. These all have huge benefits. The science becomes public and as these things are being invented papers are being written and industry is able to learn from these challenges and transfer the lessons learned to their own applications, which dramatically reduces R&D costs. Additionally, a lot of mathematical frameworks and tools are build out of this (I was considering putting this under #1). These maths apply far beyond a specific problem. You might find things like how to do fast QR decomposition or signal analysis.

I'll add a bit to #2 too. You might ask why not push that money into industries. Well there's a few reasons. First, science is exploratory by nature. You may have no idea about all the challenges you're going to face and all the things you need when undertaking big projects like these (that's why there's constant delays). I mean we got the internet out of a problem like this with CERN. Second off, scientists don't give a shit about industry (well not to the same degree). They say that happiness is worth 10 IQ points. If you've ever talked to scientists in a big lab they will nerd out on you. It is exciting just exploring what makes the universe and us. Maybe it is just my degree in physics, but I also think there's something poetic to trying to understand the environment around us. Does everything have to have a direct monetary value? What's wrong about learning for the sake of learning? Also, sometimes the return on investment on science is hundreds of years, but it does seem to always pay dividends.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like everytime her name comes up, its always a bunch of comments like "i don't like her tone" or whatever, but never much in way of substantiated disagreement. I can't help but wonder if she is just speaking uncomfortable truths about things a lot of the hn audience like, where nobody can really come up with a counter per se but there is still a negative gut reaction of i-don't-like-people-challenging-my-world…

Her Simulation Theory video was absolutely awful ( https://lech.substack.com/p/sabine-hossenfelders-video-the-s... ), so it's not just a gut reaction.

I mean the link you linked to is pretty terrible itself

> There are many theories in theoretical physics where it is very difficult or impossible to come up with experiments to prove or disprove them, e.g. Everett’s Many-Worlds Interpretation or the String Theory. One might call these sorts of theories metaphysical, fine, but it doesn’t make them into disproven pseudoscience or religions.

Like i'm really not sure how you can argue that religion and metaphysics are distinct. The main difference is just how much cultural baggage is attached.

Ultimately after reading that article (and having not watched the video it is responding to) my conclusion is not that Sabine misunderstands the simulation theory (she may or may not, but nothing there convinced me she did) but that the author of the article misunderstands what the word "science" means. Like the term "pseudoscience" may be unfair, as that has specific connotations, but its clearly a metaphysical theory not a scientific theory.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because whether it's true or not, it doesn't tend to get results in changing how things are done. But at the same time, several comments on this post are talking about how they think her diatribes will have an undue influence on funding decisions, so i doubt that accounts for all the negativity.

I do think that her "the mainstream scientists are doing it wrong/lying/wasting money" shtick advances mistrust in science in general. That worries me.

I would argue its important to meet such arguments head on.

The reason people trust science is because it listens to skeptics and critics and refutes their arguments. Of course some people are cranks that cannot be reasoned with, but this person clearly does not fall into the category.

Sweeping disenting voices under the rug is how people lose faith in institutions in the long term.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be complaining about Copernicus not adding anything to equants and epicycles if you lived then?

While another poster rightly pointed that Copernicus still used epicycles, you are correct in implying that the greatest contribution of the theories created after 1920, e.g. quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, chromodynamics etc. has been in the enhancement of our qualitative understanding of the physics of the elementary particles and of their interactions. This qualitative understanding has been very helpful…

Funny argument when one realizes that QED, formulated well after 1920, is one of the most tested theories with the best quantitative results currently, with agreement between experiment and theory to better than 10^-12 relative precision (depending how you count) for g_e/2.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#236
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that example assumes the conclusion. A better analogy would be "spinning objects theories". It's a category so broad you could always find something which works, but since it's not really thought of as a particular solution, it isn't so vulnerable to overfitting. Epicycles were bad largely because they gave a false impression of closing in on reality; every new round of additions consisted of smaller and…

What on earth is a "spinning object theory"???

Planets and sun in epicycles around the earth, planets and moons in cycles around the sun, planets in cycles around the sun and moons in cycles around planets, that sort of thing. I used it as an example because "supersymmetry" is more a descriptor, than a theory unto itself. If you make your "theory" big enough it's going to technically be unfalsifiable, but that's more because you drew too large a bound than any mark against it.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#237

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

> But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics, and everything quantum, quantum information, quantum computing, quantum metrology, and so on Everybody ignores the condensed matter people!

Ah, come on, that's essentially chemistry.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think that her "the mainstream scientists are doing it wrong/lying/wasting money" shtick advances mistrust in science in general. That worries me.

I would argue its important to meet such arguments head on. The reason people trust science is because it listens to skeptics and critics and refutes their arguments. Of course some people are cranks that cannot be reasoned with, but this person clearly does not fall into the category. Sweeping disenting voices under the rug is how people lose faith in institutions in the long term.

Yes, and the right arena for that are carefully formulated papers with formulas, instead of youtube videos and blog posts with large claims and no substance. Have a look at arxiv, and you will find that the community engages with her arguments there, at least for the stuff she actually wrote a paper about. (In recent times, I'm not so sure about her not being in that category, btw.)

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#239

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

I’m sure the compendium is good but man does that sound like the perfect name for a stupidly misleading pop science summary of quantum whatever

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jet engine would be another example.

Technically that was something invented before/in WW-II.

True, both most of the development effort required to turn the tech into a practical transportation system happened after the war (and more than half of the funding came from militaries).
Post reply on HN