Live data from Hacker News

Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

backreaction.blogspot.com

191–200 of 282 posts

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard how the military makes a lot of technology that benefits society? Well, it's the same principle for esoteric experimental science: unique requirements leads to new tech being developed and then you can turn around, and if you find some use for some bit of the new tech you can tout it as a "boon to society".

> Have you heard how the military makes a lot of technology that benefits society? No, not since World War 2. Examples?

ARPANET and GPS come to mind. Both were developed with large military impetus.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#192
post #129
post #98

No. Particle physics has shown a clear need for a clean next gen e/p collider. The author unfortunately got caught up in the grind of the field and not the context or big picture. And frankly this is exemplified by the US having an even stronger publish or perish attitude. Almost nobody ever in the field has used the phrase "god particle", at least in Europe. Thats yet another american contribution I'm sorry. Fine, l…

Has it shown a clear need? What's the required energy needed to show the new thing, and what what need does it fill? Will the next collider solve climate change?

> Will the next collider solve climate change?

This is an irrelevant appeal to emotion, try to engage faithfully

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#193
This is the tldr for me:

"the mean value of the new measurement isn’t so different from earlier data analyses. The striking thing about this new analysis is the small error bar. That the error bar is so small is the reason why this result has such a high statistical significance. They quote a disagreement with the standard model at 6.9 sigma. That’s well above the discovery threshold in particle physics which is often somewhat arbitrarily put at 5 sigma."

"What did they do to get the error bar so small? Well for one thing they have a lot of data. But they also did a lot of calibration cross-checks with other measurements, which basically means they know very precisely how to extract the physical parameters from the raw data, or at least they think they do. Is this reasonable? Yes. Is it correct? I don’t know. It could be. But in all honesty, I am very skeptical that this result will hold up. More likely, they have underestimated the error and their result is actually compatible with the other measurements."

I think it's great that someone can tell me about the nature of the difference in the mass and whether it's likely to hold up under more scrutiny (no). I believe Sabine's judgement here as other small discrepancies have disappeared in the past.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the orbit of Mercury (or any other astronomical observations) important for the discover of Relativity. My understanding was that experimental impetus for relativity was the Michelson–Morley experiment, which was an in-lab experiment, not an astronomical observation. General relativity was then developed on a purely theoretical basis. That it was able to explain Mercury's orbit was a nice bit of empirical confirm…

Good luck finding a $1Tr project without real world evidence - just theoretical models.

You mean like we do at CERN?

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#195
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An easy, direct link, for example: Careful observation of the orbit of Mercury —> Special Relativity —> General Relativity —> GPS satellites able to keep exact time —> the map app on your mobile phone.

Was the orbit of Mercury (or any other astronomical observations) important for the discover of Relativity. My understanding was that experimental impetus for relativity was the Michelson–Morley experiment, which was an in-lab experiment, not an astronomical observation. General relativity was then developed on a purely theoretical basis. That it was able to explain Mercury's orbit was a nice bit of empirical confirm…

> Was the orbit of Mercury (or any other astronomical observations) important for the discover of Relativity.

For general relativity, yes.

> My understanding was that experimental impetus for relativity was the Michelson–Morley experiment

This was one of the results that pointed the way to special relativity. It had nothing to do with general relativity.

> General relativity was then developed on a purely theoretical basis.

No, it wasn't. There was a huge body of experimental evidence already about gravity. It was true that all of that evidence, except for the anomalous precession of Mercury's perihelion, could be explained by Newtonian gravity; but general relativity, as a proposed new theory of gravity, had to also account for all of that experimental evidence. In other words, in the appropriate limiting case (weak fields and low speeds compared to the speed of light), general relativity had to reproduce all of the correct predictions of Newtonian gravity. That was a huge, and very important, experimental constraint.

> Almost by definition, a theory that is ultimately useful can be confirmed without need of astronomy.

Not if the differences between its predictions and the predictions of the previous theory (in this case Newtonian gravity) are only measurable in astronomical observations at the time the new theory is proposed. That was true of general relativity in 1915 and for at least a couple of decades afterwards. The differences between GR and Newtonian gravity for earthbound experiments were simply too small for the technology of the time to measure. So astronomical observations were the only way to test GR when it was proposed.

> we could probably get GPS to work even without relativity

Technology can of course be developed on a purely empirical basis, if you're prepared to make a lot of mistakes along the way that you wouldn't make without a good theoretical foundation. If it hadn't been for the knowledge of relativity on the part of the scientists involved, the GPS satellites probably would have been launched without any capability for adjusting their clock rates. Which would have meant that, once clock rate drift due to relativistic effects was seen, there would have been no way to adjust for it. So those satellites would have become expensive but useless toys, and a new constellation of satellites would have had to be built and launched.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#196
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

An easy, direct link, for example: Careful observation of the orbit of Mercury —> Special Relativity —> General Relativity —> GPS satellites able to keep exact time —> the map app on your mobile phone.

This idea that you need to model GR to do GNSS is very over stated. You need to correct for a GR effect, but it is a small part of a residual in a least squares problem that gets regressed away. So it is important for understanding the error budget but it really is a small effect, compared to say ionospheric delay due to atmospheric charge or clock drift.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the same be said for particle physics? The accelerators and detectors seem very high tech.

there's a lot of learning potential in building one or two but after that you're pretty much just making them bigger. There's a lot of engineering and construction involved but the new ones are really just very expensive and huge without netting necessarily much in terms of engineering science. In particular if you consider opportunity costs. With the 23 billion(!) it costs to build the new Large Hadron collider you…

The world spends about 2 Trillion dollars on military per year. 23 billion over, say, 10 years as a lower bound, is a per mille of that. NASA has a yearly budget of 20 billion, ~1/3 of which goes into science.

(BTW, with 100k, in experimental physics, you can't even pay for a postdoc at an US institution for a year)

That shouldn't mean NASA should get less money. But 23 billion for a world-wide, multi-decade project isn't that much.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that she chooses to bring forward here doubts via youtube, books, and blogs (i.e. the things she earns money with) instead of/in addition to a well written paper on arxiv (i.e. like everyone else who wants to partake in a honest physics discussion*) lets me question her intent. (She has papers to some of the things she complains about, which normally get answered by rebuttals. This is normal scientific disco…

Maybe she's in it for the fame and money, but I don't think that would make her intentions malicious.

She abuses an information asymmetry and social conventions. Scientific discourse is usually conducted in academic papers, for better or worse this is how the community conducts itself. When she criticizes others work or the usefulness of the fields outside this channel she is addressing as a singular voice the general public. Which gives her voice an outsized presence with a public that is not prepared to engage on equal terms on that discourse or prepare any rebuttal. Meanwhile the rest of the physics community looks dumbfounded because she is escaping the typical means of discourse and ratting them out to the general public, that can´t really make an informed judgement.

Either she is socially clueless on how this can be seen negatively by the rest of the scientific community or she is malicious in her attempts to defund parts of science she believes shouldn't get funding.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#199

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

Contrarianism should never be confused with intelligence. When someone says "most of them don’t like me", you can hear the underlying hisses of "because I am right and they are wrong" and "because I am smart and they are dumb". If most people don't like you, there's a very simple reason for it.

She never said 'most people don't like me'. She said 'most [particle physicists] don't like me'. It just means she has touched on a point of contention that particle physicists care a lot about.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I know enough to say she's "challenging my world view" since i don't necessarily know enough about the subject to have a world view. But I still have a negative reaction to the way she (and others in other fields) does it. Because whether it's true or not, it doesn't tend to get results in changing how things are done.

> Because whether it's true or not, it doesn't tend to get results in changing how things are done. But at the same time, several comments on this post are talking about how they think her diatribes will have an undue influence on funding decisions, so i doubt that accounts for all the negativity.

I do think that her "the mainstream scientists are doing it wrong/lying/wasting money" shtick advances mistrust in science in general. That worries me.
Post reply on HN