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Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

backreaction.blogspot.com

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Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#101
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Falsifying supersymmetry is like falsifying Ptolemaic epicycles. You can never falsify it with data because epicycles can always be constructed to fit any data set [1]. Likewise, a sypersymmetric theory can be constructed to fit any set of parameters. But fitting the data is not enough. You have to fit the data with substantially fewer parameters than data points. That's the challenge. [1] https://www.youtube.com/wat…

Indeed. Are you suggesting, perhaps, that the promoters of the LHC were making claims that they knew could not be satisfied by it - or, perhaps, that nothing they said could reasonably be interpreted as such a claim? The trouble is, I don't know which specific claims Hossenfelder is basing her allegations on.

She explains that here

http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-multiworse-is-c...

Quote:

Before the LHC’s launch in 2008, many theorists expressed themselves confident the collider would produce new particles besides the Higgs boson. That hasn’t happened. And the public isn’t remotely as dumb as many academics wish. They’ll remember next time we come ask for money.

The big proclamations came almost exclusively from theoretical physicists; CERN didn’t promise anything they didn’t deliver. That is an important distinction, but I am afraid in the public perception the subtler differences won’t matter. It’s “physicists said.” And what physicists said was wrong. Like hair, trust is hard to split. And like hair, trust is easier to lose than to grow.

What the particle physicists got wrong was an argument based on a mathematical criterion called “naturalness”. If the laws of nature were “natural” according to this definition, then the LHC should have seen something besides the Higgs. The data analysis isn’t yet completed, but at this point it seems unlikely something more than statistical anomalies will show up.

I must have sat through hundreds of seminars in which naturalness arguments were repeated. Let me just flash you a representative slide from a 2007 talk by Michelangelo L. Mangano (full pdf here), so you get the idea. The punchline is at the very top: “new particles must appear” in an energy range of about a TeV (ie accessible at the LHC) “to avoid finetuning.”

I don’t mean to pick on Mangano in particular; his slides are just the first example that Google brought up. This was the argument why the LHC should see something new: To avoid finetuning and to preserve naturalness.

I explained many times previously why the conclusions based on naturalness were not predictions, but merely pleas for the laws of nature to be pretty. Luckily I no longer have to repeat these warnings, because the data agree that naturalness isn’t a good argument.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#102
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Sabine is has the bona fides to know her stuff but also a contrarian and a bit of an outcast, and she knows how to market herself. All of this combined is perfect for hackernews.

Yeah, it's weird how she transitioned from being a fairly normal popsci blogger into being a sort of lubos light.

I think too much activity on social media does this to people.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#103
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware. I'll check it out. I think you mean this: “Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray” https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Math-Beauty-Physics-Astray/dp/04... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1KFTPqc0nQ I still find the tone off putting, reminds me of the fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures. Nevertheless, I'll watch the video and reexamine my opinion.

I’m just generally increasingly off put by the internets incessant “quibbling”. This seemingly endless juxtaposition of antithesis to follow any thesis. At some point that becomes just more noise, and that can be used by an agenda.

I still found her point valid and interesting and not at all noise. My takeaway is more that new physics might well be out of our energetic grasps until we build some much larger accelerators. Little idea how to convince society of the worth of that expense. Maybe if it can produce useful substances for industrial use. I’d love more knowledge on expansions to the periodic table, for example.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#104
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sabine went on full rant/iconoclastic/grudge mode IMO recently. It's a shame, as she a good communicator, but I just see myself skipping her content when it pops up. “I left the field because it's a paper production machine that adds no value to society” without substantiation is simply a frustration ridden meme.

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

[deleted]

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#105
I really think this paper should be more widely known, because it's eye opening: https://physicsdetective.com/something-is-rotten-in-the-stat...

It made me realize QED is the equivalent of a million lines spaghetti codebase that's been continually built upon, fudge after fudge since the 40s, while being sold as the best thing ever, the ultimate model of reality, etc. While it really started as a temporary solution like a bash script that should've been replaced by something more elegant... many decades ago. And now we are in this mess.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#106
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

Fair enough, I wasn't aware. I'll check it out. I think you mean this: “Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray” https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Math-Beauty-Physics-Astray/dp/04... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1KFTPqc0nQ I still find the tone off putting, reminds me of the fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures. Nevertheless, I'll watch the video and reexamine my opinion.

> fox and the grapes fable, not sure if it's known to most cultures.

That's one of Aesop's fables. I believe it's widely known, at least in all western cultures. The fox can't reach the grapes he desires, so he concludes the grapes were sour and he didn't want them anyway.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#107
post #104
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She wrote a book about this topic. So the claim that there is no substantiation is false. You just didn't bother to find out.

[deleted]

How is attacking her character contributing to the conversation?

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#108

It is not my field, but the post, the video, has all the markings I see of outrage influencers on youtube: acting like they know better than everyone else, making broad swipes and claims, posting monetized videos with exaggerated eye popping photo covers, and the whole "I used to be them but saw the light and left schtick.", claims of scientists lying, without the honesty of naming names. Well, I'd rather get this ki…

Don't respond to tone rather than content, especially if you're in no position to evaluate the content. Otherwise you'll fall for horseshit spoken in a tone you like.

I will tolerate an abrasive tone in an emotionally charged discussion where people's lives are affected. I will do so carefully, because it's incredibly easy to be mislead by emotional content, but I will put in the effort, because important viewpoints can't be usefully distinguished from manipulation by their tone in those arenas.

Physics is not one of those arenas. I am not even remotely worried that selecting explorations of QM interpretations based on tone might result in giving me a skewed perception of the topic due to my ignoring the views of those being harmed by them.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the standard model does not work "extremely well". Even if we suppose that the standard model is completely correct, it does not allow the computation of the majority of the useful physical quantities. What is needed is a model that would be able to compute all the physical quantities that are important in practice, e.g. the masses of all hadrons and of all atomic nuclei, also their magnetic moments, th…

Would you be complaining about Copernicus not adding anything to equants and epicycles if you lived then?

Copernican heliocentrism still used epicycles, so fans of those would not have been completely disappointed.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard how the military makes a lot of technology that benefits society? Well, it's the same principle for esoteric experimental science: unique requirements leads to new tech being developed and then you can turn around, and if you find some use for some bit of the new tech you can tout it as a "boon to society".

Couldn't the same be said for particle physics? The accelerators and detectors seem very high tech.

there's a lot of learning potential in building one or two but after that you're pretty much just making them bigger. There's a lot of engineering and construction involved but the new ones are really just very expensive and huge without netting necessarily much in terms of engineering science. In particular if you consider opportunity costs. With the 23 billion(!) it costs to build the new Large Hadron collider you could fund 230.000 100k grants to young scientists. That's enough money to fund entire disciplines.

And that's important to keep in mind because money is a limited resource and what's relevant is where that money didn't go rather than just speaking idealistically about the potential benefits of a megaproject.

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