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Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

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Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#61

Post by FollowingTheDao »

photochemsyn wrote: post #50
robonerd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

Pale Blue Dot, the snapshot of Earth taken by Voyager I, comes to mind. https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/536/voyager-1s-pale-b... The effect is more psychological than technological, but it shows the foolishness of global warfare and resource exhaustion in the name of short-term profit, and encourages people to live together peacefully and work together to solve global-scale problems.

> and encourages people to live together peacefully and work together to solve global-scale problems.

Hey, guess what? It didn't work. Have you read the news lately?

Besides, I know a few sociopaths that would look at that Pale Blue Dot and think "I want it all".

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#62

Post by couchand »

robonerd wrote: post #45
photochemsyn wrote: post #12

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

Well, I'd argue that till now many of our most vibrant flowers of innovation ultimately grew out of basic research into how the universe works. A deeper understanding of the fabric of the universe seems enough to me to call it "societal progress" (with the OP saying particle physics no longer provides such new insight), but if you're looking for specific technologies that might come of it, perhaps consider the benefits that could accrue to human space travel.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#63

Post by JackFr »

XorNot wrote: post #46
photochemsyn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a limited pool of resources available to do basic fundamental science and it's fair to argue that things like LHC have absorbed a disproportionate share of these scare resources, without a whole lot to show for it. Since it's the general public that ultimately funds these projects (unless the LHC can attract its own Jeff Bezos), I think it is OK to have a public discussion about it.

> LHC have absorbed a disproportionate share of these scare resources As opposed to? This sentiment was bandied around a lot before the LHC went online, but no one ever had a proposition of what the alternative was is the goal was to advance fundamental particle physics. You've got exactly 2 ways to probe subatomic interactions: (1) particle accelerator measurement and (2) incidental measurements of high-energy space…

Maybe the physicists are looking for their car keys under the streetlight. Unable to find, them the only solution they can conceive of is a bigger streetlight.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#64

Post by octonion »

photochemsyn wrote: post #12

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

Contrarianism should never be confused with intelligence. When someone says "most of them don’t like me", you can hear the underlying hisses of "because I am right and they are wrong" and "because I am smart and they are dumb". If most people don't like you, there's a very simple reason for it.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#65

Post by FollowingTheDao »

mhh__ wrote: post #58
SiempreViernes wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's weird how she transitioned from being a fairly normal popsci blogger into being a sort of lubos light.

Populism is like gravity, to paraphrase the Joker in the dark Knight.

Yes, she is the Trump of Science. And I do not say that be be demeaning of either. While I do not care for Trump, he knows what he is doing when it comes to showmanship, and so does she.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#66

Post by r3trohack3r »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #61
photochemsyn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pale Blue Dot, the snapshot of Earth taken by Voyager I, comes to mind. https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/536/voyager-1s-pale-b... The effect is more psychological than technological, but it shows the foolishness of global warfare and resource exhaustion in the name of short-term profit, and encourages people to live together peacefully and work together to solve global-scale problems.

> and encourages people to live together peacefully and work together to solve global-scale problems. Hey, guess what? It didn't work. Have you read the news lately? Besides, I know a few sociopaths that would look at that Pale Blue Dot and think "I want it all".

According to many metrics, it seems the world is indeed improving over time. The news is a poor source for evaluating the net sum of human suffering - the incentive model is all wrong.

https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_is_the_world_getting...

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#67

Post by FollowingTheDao »

colechristensen wrote: post #60
robonerd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

Every human society more or less has had a religion with a version of their cosmology, it seems universally relevant to human interests to have an actual set of answers. And what is “societal progress” anyway?

My view of societal progress would look retrograde to almost everyone.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#68

Post by robonerd »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #59
robonerd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

Have you heard how the military makes a lot of technology that benefits society? Well, it's the same principle for esoteric experimental science: unique requirements leads to new tech being developed and then you can turn around, and if you find some use for some bit of the new tech you can tout it as a "boon to society".

Couldn't the same be said for particle physics? The accelerators and detectors seem very high tech.

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#69

Post by dEnigma »

robonerd wrote: post #45
photochemsyn wrote: post #12

Well this is kind of funny and I mostly agree so TLDR: > "I’m afraid all of this sounds rather negative. Well. There’s a reason I left particle physics. Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress or for progress in any other discipline of science. The only reason we still hear so much about it is that a lot of funding goes into it and so…

> "Particle physics has degenerated into a paper production enterprise that is of virtually no relevance for societal progress [...] But the disciplines where the foundations of physics currently make progress are cosmology and astrophysics [...]" Can anybody explain the relevance of cosmology and astrophysics to societal progress? I'm sure these are very worthwhile fields of study in other respects.. but societal pr…

I don't think she was trying to say that those disciplines contribute to the progress of society in any meaningful way. The point, in my opinion, was that particle physics has neither relevance for societal progress, nor currently makes progress in the foundations of physics (as opposed to the other two disciplines).

Re: Did the W-boson just “break the standard model”?

#70

Post by FollowingTheDao »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #66
FollowingTheDao wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and encourages people to live together peacefully and work together to solve global-scale problems. Hey, guess what? It didn't work. Have you read the news lately? Besides, I know a few sociopaths that would look at that Pale Blue Dot and think "I want it all".

According to many metrics, it seems the world is indeed improving over time. The news is a poor source for evaluating the net sum of human suffering - the incentive model is all wrong. https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_is_the_world_getting...

As the island of improvement grows, so grows the shores of suffering.

But can a dataset really encapsulate human suffering? Is there a lower percent of people suffering but are they each suffering more individually? What is the quality of the suffering? Is it better to suffer 30 years with pain or to die after a month of it?

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