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Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

talmudology.com

81–90 of 141 posts

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposing the owner installed really invasive spying tools - the cameras and microphones, and used those to discover the tenant played the piano. Then, I think the owner would be guilty of whatever invasion of privacy law or tort is relevant, but the tenant would still be in breach of the contract. It would be right to punish the owner and tenant for their respective misdeeds, not say that because the owner did bad t…

I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid. Regardless, I could imagine it might incentivize spying otherwise.

> I think the law says otherwise? Evidence collected illegally is (usually?) not valid.

Evidence collected by the state in violation of Constitutional protections relating to search and seizure rights of the defendant is generally (with, however, ever-widening exceptions) inadmissible in criminal trials.

Otherwise, illegally-obtained may or may not be permitted; it quite often is, though presenting it opens one up to charges relating to the illegal act involved in gathering it.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#82
post #43

the idea behind that crazy scenario of a man penetrating a woman when falling from the roof: He has to pay for the physical injury but not for the shame of raping her. The entire action was unintentional. But physical injury is still needed to be accounted for even if unintential, we do it even in our modern laws with 'involuntary manslaughter' etc However, the hurt to a person's feelings - it apparently needs intent…

Modern law seem to be rooted in religious laws, there is a lot of similarities either unintentionally/intentionally,

People didn't used to separate religious belief from how communities were governed; the idea of separate “civil” and “religious” law is a modern dichotomy. Historically, it was just the law of the community; sure, once that was forked into “civil” and “religious” law some places, the two sides of the fork have a lot in common.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#83
post #77

Whenever one finds an absurd "rule", there is, generally, a reason. You don't put up a sign that says "Don't stick utensils in electrical sockets" until someone's done it or thought about it. And if the rule is "don't juggle forks while riding a unicycle around electrical outlets", it's usually because someone lied about what happened. > Rabba said: One who fell from a roof and was inserted into a woman due to the fo…

Please, no. Do you think a bird really laid eggs in a woman’s hair and a decision needed to be made? This is a really arrogant and frustrating assertion you are making.

[deleted]

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#84
post #6
post #2

Whenever I see something about the Talmud in gentile-dominated spaces I tense up a bit. I'm not orthodox anymore, but I was orthodox for the first 20-odd years of my life so I'm in the unique position of being around a lot of gentiles but knowing a lot about Judaism and Jewish law. This article is pretty ok, but its format is probably confusing for a gentile audience. For reference: a large number of Jews do "daf yom…

Why does it make you tense up?

No post body was provided.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#85
post #72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What changes if the Jews call people non-Jews v. gentiles? The context and intent is identical. Unless we just want to be offended by existance of Jews and the idea of a Jew/non-Jew divide existing.

What changes if we call people negros instead of black? > Unless we just want to be offended by existance of Jews If you dislike the use of a world, you must be an anti-Semite? I guess the people who dislike the Spanish derived term must be anti-Hispanic.

> What changes if we call people negros instead of black?

I don't know, let's ask the United Negro College Fund, and it's work for African American youth, particularly at Historically Black Colleges and Universities. Within the actual community, there's differences as to the most-preferred term for the community, and there’s generational differences in the distribution of preferences, but unless you are using one of the terms that historical principally a slur or indicating a racist attitude in some other way, it's not as big of a deal as white racists who like to place the blame for the anger they incite on nitpicking about anthroponymy rather than the substance of their ideas.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#86
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doctor was found guilty of murder, because he had overwhelming control of the situation. No idea what "felony murder rule" is but if it's in the anglo-saxon tradition, I doubt it's applicable. I can't remember what happened with the piano. IIRC, both cases happened in Germany and the piano one was long ago so cameras and mics were not a possibility then. Anyway the legal foundation in play there was if there's so…

The felony murder rule is, if you commit a felony, and a person dies as a result of your crime, then you are guilty of murder. The classic example is the getaway driver in a bank robbery. If the bank robbers go in and shoot the security guard, a clerk or two, and a customer, and all you do as the getaway driver is drive the robbers away from the crime, you will still go to jail for murder even though you had nothing…

Yeah, I don't see that last thing working in my country.

"Criminal organization" is a crime in itself so it's a different tool to apply tougher penalties. But, apart from that, the complicity rules have more strict requirements.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#87
post #4

Actually, some real cases are as weird as the hypothetical ones. A couple comes to mind: a guy rents a house in the middle of nowhere with the condition that he won't play the grand piano that's in the middle of the living room. And another one, a guy suicides after his doctor diagnoses him with a terminal cancer. In case you didn't guess: the first guy played the piano and the doctor was having an affair with his pa…

These cases feel like some kind of zen koans

Actually they're used in legal school.

To add the "stop looking at the finger" part, they tell you that there's proof of what happened, but still most students keep wondering how was it known.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

daf yomi! That's a great idea! I still think I will require a lifetime to read the Bible, both Testaments, I'm Christian...and it hurts so much to read the Book. I get so many psychiatric symptoms, especially when the Bible talks about conspiracies I can't deal with that I feel like conspiracies are real, I can read only very little very slowly. And it's the only literature that does that to me...apart from reading F…

>Molokai I hope I'm not misunderstanding, but this is the last book in the books of the prophets, Malachi? >That's the last book of Talmud, right? The Talmud is not the old testament, and isn't even written in Hebrew, but instead is written in a very hebraicized version of Aramaic. It's almost all about Jewish law. Also, this confused me because in the Jewish ordering books like Psalms and Esther come after Malachi,…

> Malachi?

Yes that. I should have remembered. I suppose I'm remembering the sound of it...and wrongfully trusting whatever autocorrect I'm running. Hence Molokai.

Oh, Talmud...second mistake. Old Testament is Torah, right?

Psalms and Esther? Wait yes those come much before Malachi. Esther comes before Job, so Esther, then Job, then Psalms, then Proverbs, then Ecclesiastes, and many others in sequence. Then the last three of the Old Testament are Haggai, Zechariah, and then Malachi. And in fact the way it's set up, in that way, Matthew acts as the fulfillment of Malachi. Last book of

The Hebrew Scriptures

THE OLD TESTAMENT

King James Version

acts as preimage of the first book of

THE NEW TESTAMENT

of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

King James Version

which is interesting, and perhaps contrary to Judaism due to ending the Old Testament on that note. In my reading of the Bible I tried reading Genesis, and realized it was very difficult to read, even scanning it was very difficult. Because I couldn't just treat it like a normal book and disrespect it! Leave it for later better. And further I could not get what I wanted out of Genesis, which a lot of people get out of it, which is a foundation in which to believe. With a very high or even total degree of literarity. Believe, literally, that is.

Instead I said, well perhaps instead I can believe literally in the first book of the New Testament!? And for that I also had to read Malachi, as a bookend so to speak. A question for its answer to make sense. Then I read Matthew and it was beautiful, it was the best, it made sense of so many things and in fact if asked by a convict, which I intend to visit when I figure out how, and not only convicts in prisons but inmates in psych wards too (who don't even get Bibles, I didn't at least, in addition to lobotomistic censorship of the Bible)...when I visit these dark places, I can tell them,

"Don't have to read it all at once. It's not one book, it is dozens of books, just with their covers stuck together so you can take them all together wherever you go. Like here. And in fact, the cover is a rectangle just like the door to your cell, and you can open it almost whenever you want. It is the door to your cell. Just start slowly, first read a letter, a really big single letter that's called "illuminated", we'll read it together. Then if you feel brave, a word above it, to know what we're reading. Now a verse. The Bible is not like a normal book, it doesn't truly have lines, it's not like that. This book is not a real Bible actually, a real Bible is what you remember of it in your head. It is what is in your brain, no use if you don't actually read it, not the most efficient way to decorate a bookshelf."

I don't know what else I'll say to that convict or lunatic. I'll find out when I say it, in the moment.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#89

Whenever one finds an absurd "rule", there is, generally, a reason. You don't put up a sign that says "Don't stick utensils in electrical sockets" until someone's done it or thought about it. And if the rule is "don't juggle forks while riding a unicycle around electrical outlets", it's usually because someone lied about what happened. > Rabba said: One who fell from a roof and was inserted into a woman due to the fo…

And if the rule is "don't juggle forks while riding a unicycle around electrical outlets", it's usually because someone lied about what happened.

Next thing that happens is smoking is forbidden while you're driving.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#90
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What changes if we call people negros instead of black? > Unless we just want to be offended by existance of Jews If you dislike the use of a world, you must be an anti-Semite? I guess the people who dislike the Spanish derived term must be anti-Hispanic.

> What changes if we call people negros instead of black? I don't know, let's ask the United Negro College Fund, and it's work for African American youth, particularly at Historically Black Colleges and Universities. Within the actual community, there's differences as to the most-preferred term for the community, and there’s generational differences in the distribution of preferences, but unless you are using one of…

So, what you're saying is:

> It's almost as if intent and context matters more than etymology.

Which you'll notice is what I said earlier in this very thread.

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