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PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

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Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#21
Bluetooth continues to be one of the most critically under-delivered standards, in my view. LC3, that this update discusses at the end, was announced January 2020. Over two years ago. There's still, to my knowledge, no devices that support it. None, not a one.

In general I feel like we only just got Bluetooth 5.0 devices available on computers. Bluetooth 4.0 or 4.2 has been frighteningly prevalent, until very very recently. Bluetooth 5 harkens back to mid 2016, Bluetooth 5.1 was announced January 2019, 5.2 in January 2020, 5.3 (you guessed it) 2021, but I'd wager you'd need to drop numerous significant figures below 1% to account for how many laptops (much less desktops) are sold today whose bluetooth is >5.0.

Truly one of the slowest, laggiest, least adoptable technologies on the planet. Really weird to me.

I can definitely accept some lag. LC3 is really using bluetooth-le, a very different scheme. At the same time, I see folks like zephyr-project already kind of making inroads into this future[1], in the open. A not small part of me thinks the way we do consumer devices is totally jank. That folks like PineBuds are living in the future, where we can compile our own OS'es for our peripherals. PineBuds[2] could, with a little zeal & push, become the first LC3 device on the planet. And they could, perhaps, unlike most other devices that'll be made in the next couple years, possibly support whatever comes next.

Shifting areas of interest a bit, but: another data-point in opening the future, the software Intel uses for their new PSE management engine just got open sourced[3]. It too is built on Zephyr.

On the positive-side, for PipeWire, incredibly sweet to see Hands-Free Profile get better. This is essentially the idea of a computer acting like a headset. This enables such vast additional degree of system flexibility, creates so many interesting situations. Phones, cars, other things are very limited in what they can do. But if we can wirelessly plug in a general purpose computer, make it act like audio system: we can do so much more. The old Nohands[4] stack is wildly out of date & unsupported. PipeWire just doing the thing is 100% super sweet as the world needs to be. In general, a more amorphous world where computers can act as hosts or devices is one I thing would be vastly empowering: software is soft, and so too should be hardware, when it can.

[1] https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/liblc3codec

[2] https://www.pine64.org/2022/04/01/introducing-the-pinebuds-a...

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31121264 (2 points, 7 days ago, 0 comments)

[4] http://nohands.sourceforge.net/

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found when Fedora switched to wireplumber it made bluetooth much less reliable. Every time I connected my headphones I had to restart wireplumber multiple times for them to connect. Haven't tried it for a few months though, maybe it's improved.

I have the same issue on the latest Fedora. It's very disappointing that bluetooth connectivity isn't a solved problem in 2022 (at least on Linux, haven't noticed any issues in Windows for a while). Are we ever going to get to a point where bluetooth "just works"?

I have daily bluetooth issues on Windows. Someone decided it was a good idea to have bluetooth jabra speakers/microphones for our meetingrooms... It takes 5 minutes to do the pair/connect/set correct device dance... every. day.

My macbook can't even figure out that it should try to connect to my offce trackpad after I have had it connected to my home trackpad! Thankfully it has a built in trackpad that I can use to manually connect when the "automation" fails..

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was latency ever an issue with movies? I know mine works without issue on pulseaudio+bluez by delaying the video to sync it with audio (which is actually noticable with an old noname speaker when you pause/play the video - the video stalls, then (i guess) the audio buffers are filled, and movie starts playing with syned a/v, and then when pausing, maybe half a second of audio is still played after you've paused it).

Definitely an issue with Netflix on Ubuntu. Enough that I prefer to “obtain” via other means the content I have paid access then watch it in mpv (where I must still manually introduce a video delay). The delay you describe should be only as long as it takes for the audio packet to be processed by the audio stack as the video syncs with the audio and not the other way around. But I don’t think Bluetooth blocks for an…

> Definitely an issue with Netflix on Ubuntu. Enough that I prefer to “obtain” via other means the content I have paid access then watch it in mpv (where I must still manually introduce a video delay).

pavucontrol let's you introduce a delay per device (in Output Devices under "Advanced" for the specific device), which might allow you to use it with Netflix directly. Or at least I managed to get it working wonkily once and then went back to using mpv...

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#24

I’ve only heard good things about PipeWire so I must ask: will this finally give me a lower latency option for Bluetooth audio on Linux? After my old Anker speakers went belly-up° I “upgraded” to their latest model which I didn’t realize was aux/3.5mm-free and have been suffering ever since from horrendous lag when using the external speakers to stream movies on my Linux laptop. ° Ok, in actuality my kid broke half a…

Yes, it doesn't remove the latency completely, but it's the best we've got now. I'm using a Bose soundbar and the Bluetooth connection is way too laggy for movies on pulseaudio, windows, or Mac. Pipewire was great and usable with default settings. In an ironic twist, Linux has the best audio story of all systems right now.

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#25
post #21

Bluetooth continues to be one of the most critically under-delivered standards, in my view. LC3, that this update discusses at the end, was announced January 2020. Over two years ago. There's still, to my knowledge, no devices that support it. None, not a one. In general I feel like we only just got Bluetooth 5.0 devices available on computers. Bluetooth 4.0 or 4.2 has been frighteningly prevalent, until very very re…

> Over two years ago. There's still, to my knowledge, no devices that support it. None, not a one.

To be honest, that timeline strikes me as pretty comparable with other hardware protocols like 802.11, USB, 5G etc. These are complex protocols, parts of them implemented in fixed-function logic, and that just takes some time to market.

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#26
post #17

I’ve only heard good things about PipeWire so I must ask: will this finally give me a lower latency option for Bluetooth audio on Linux? After my old Anker speakers went belly-up° I “upgraded” to their latest model which I didn’t realize was aux/3.5mm-free and have been suffering ever since from horrendous lag when using the external speakers to stream movies on my Linux laptop. ° Ok, in actuality my kid broke half a…

There are protocol limitations here. There have been very recent advances, that bring us to 40~60 ms, but they all root in Bluetooth 5 (officially announced july 2016 but holy fucking shit this adoption has been trashfire slow especially on pc) and it's incredibly confusing/difficult to understand which if any codecs have been able to take advantage of this possibility. It'd take me probably an hour to put together t…

I just use vlc and the s and d keys I think for adding audio offset either slow or fast!

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#28
post #17

I’ve only heard good things about PipeWire so I must ask: will this finally give me a lower latency option for Bluetooth audio on Linux? After my old Anker speakers went belly-up° I “upgraded” to their latest model which I didn’t realize was aux/3.5mm-free and have been suffering ever since from horrendous lag when using the external speakers to stream movies on my Linux laptop. ° Ok, in actuality my kid broke half a…

There are protocol limitations here. There have been very recent advances, that bring us to 40~60 ms, but they all root in Bluetooth 5 (officially announced july 2016 but holy fucking shit this adoption has been trashfire slow especially on pc) and it's incredibly confusing/difficult to understand which if any codecs have been able to take advantage of this possibility. It'd take me probably an hour to put together t…

I’m not certain Bluetooth 5 is it: I have a MacBook Pro 2012 w Bluetooth 4.0. Using it with two Bluetooth devices results in different latency, depending on the device.

JBL “true wireless” I have to adjust audio to about -200 ms delay while with AirPod pro I don’t have to make any adjustment.

Both the JBL and Apple devices are Bluetooth 5.

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#29

Since I switched to pipewire I've had the best Linux audio end-user experience with BlueTooth devices, ever.

PipeWire supports the most audio codecs of any desktop operating system, period. Windows and Mac don't have LDAC, Mac doesn't have aptX, etc.

I vaguely remember an old post from here showing someone hacking up Bluetooth to give SBC codec better quality, and it only being available on Linux (or maybe it was Linux+Android?)

I’ll try to dig it up and edit it in here, as I think it was a great hack

Re: PipeWire: Bluetooth Support Status Update

#30
I was never successful in getting both mic and HQ audio working with BT on PulseAudio. Configuring to use A2DP gives the most fulfilling sound quality while nullifying the mic, thus becoming a huge deal-breaker for me. Does PipeWire incorporate any wizardry to overcome this and let me have simultaneous access to both mic and high quality audio? I have a JBL Everest Elite 700 and I am running on Ubuntu 21.10.
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