Is everything falling apart? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#361

Post by zmgsabst » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #335

zmgsabst wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason people focus on definitions like “oh, it’s really about toxic masculinity!” is because admitting the truth would make them look bad: Fascism is a collectivist authoritarian system with regulated commerce rather than direct state control, often co-occurring with systemic racism. The reason people don’t want to be honest about the definition is that it’s the platform of modern Democrats, who are gaslighting…

> Fascism is a collectivist authoritarian system with regulated commerce rather than direct state control That's the clearest definition of fascism I've ever heard. Where's it from?

I’m paraphrasing what the fascists said their goals were.

If you read about fascism, their proponents viewed it as “Marxism 2.0” — where they could leverage the socialist ideas of collectivist authoritarianism without the problems encountered by the original Marxist revolutionaries with total state control of commerce.

A unified populace where “everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.”

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#362

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #220

machinevision wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you feel we should not try? (genuinely curious in your PoV)

I can't see that there's a moral way for people exit the solar system boundary out "into the stars." No one making that choice can arrive there, or even experience an appreciable part of the trip in one life. It's committing generations to be born, live and die for no purpose except to exist and to breed for some future goal of some past people. I believe this to be wicked. People have always migrated into the unknow…

[deleted]

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#363

Post by bryanlarsen » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

mellavora wrote: post #312

bryanlarsen wrote: post #107

We were getting close to a fairly positive future. There are three basic constraints to material and non-material goods: - capital - labour - energy There are other raw materials, but they aren't limiting factors. For example, processed Lithium is in short supply right now, but it's not raw Lithium that's the constraint. We don't have enough Lithium mines and processing facilities. capital/labour/energy, in other wor…

I like your framework, but I do question your dismissal of raw materials. The 'green revolution' broke a barrier in our ability to grow food (amount per acre), but it isn't clear if that increase can be sustained for the next 100 years-- the massive amounts of chemicals we put on the land are killing the soil. That's before we get to climate-change threats to food production. Or species diversity threats to food prod…

We could easily grow a lot more food in less space if we had to. To give an extreme example: greenhouses grow about 1000x as much food per acre as conventional farming does, but the resulting food costs about 10x as much.

We use all our land to grow food not because we have to, but because that's the cheapest way of doing so. We could grow food more intensively, but then the price of food would go up.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#364

Post by 4ggr0 » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #223

4ggr0 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People will cite AOC as the most radical leftist they can think of, and even her Green New Deal is fundamentally grounded in the ideals of capitalism. Not very radical leftist if you ask me. That's what I think is strange. Same thing happens in my country, some people say that our country is turning into a far-leftist woke-nation. Even though center-right parties are in majority and most elected on the left aren't…

The GND is not about being green, it's about redistributing wealth and laundering taxpayer money. It's about spending trillions more, causing more inflation, and things falling further apart. AOC is a radical, and honestly she has no idea what she's promoting, like most of her followers.

> The GND is not about being green, it's about redistributing wealth

No idea what the GND does and what they proclaim, the Greens I mentioned are the ones in my country, which isn't the US. As far as I understand nothing else than Reps and Dems matter anyways.

> AOC is a radical

I don't think so, but that could also be due to me not being from the US.

Lots of things my country does would be wrongfully labeled as socialist, communist or radical in the US.

So its no susprise to me that AOC gets labeled as radical in the US, even though she still seems pretty tame to me.

I do welcome that she's more left than what I usually hear from Democrats.

EDIT: In order for you to understand me a bit better - If I'd be able to vote in the US, I would've voted for Bernie Sanders.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#365

Post by dpweb » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #111

Everything is not falling apart, though certain institutions may be falling apart. In America, there's definitely been a breakdown of belief in its own institutions. Far more people are skeptical of things like journalism and Silicon Valley; it really wasn't that long ago that the former was constantly salivating over the latter, but now it's more of an openly vulture-carrion relationship because that caters to publi…

I do think we are stuck in this cycle, where our government/politicians appeal to our basest impulses and urges. Outrage, sympathy, jingoism.

This is rewarded with political support, viewers, clicks on the headline. Even this article “Is everything falling apart”. Alarmist clickbait.

So if you’re society consists of too many people who simply act on impulse, instead of thoughtful consideration, how do you deal with that?

I’d argue less vitriol would help, but you’re incentivized in the opposite direction. Both the person who feels helpless expressing your outrage in the comments, or the media outlet trying to get viewers and clicks.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#366

Post by rtkwe » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 3:59 PM UTC

goodoldneon wrote: post #60

m0llusk wrote: post #34

This is a bit of an oversimplification of the argument. Technology is argued to be a wedge, but this is in the context of well documented social division. In recent memory we were significantly less divided and the most consumed media sources served as moderators. Brushing this off as just another prognostication and everything is always messed up is missing the seriousness of this. It is perhaps fortunate that the U…

> Perhaps the next external threat will be carbon climate cancer? Americans rarely unite against something that's partially and/or possibly our fault.

Also that will prove costly to the existing economic order, companies will resist every change that threatens their bottom line unless and until they find a way to benefit themselves. Look at oil now "energy" companies like Shell that knew climate change was a looming cliff but were so heavily invested in oil they buried the issue in confusion and flak until they figured out how to make money off of green energy.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#367

Post by ajross » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

RubberMullet wrote: post #253

ajross wrote: post #179

[flagged]

What would you consider good journalism these days? And is the right wing news industry bigger or smaller than the left wing side of things?

I understand the fight your picking, but really this isn't that much of an argument. "Mainstream media" makes mistakes. It has perspectives that leak through into interpretation. It has blindspots in coverage. But mainstream journalists almost to a fault genuinely view their job as bringing important facts to their audience, and they care about getting things right. That's just not true of the partisan press on the right, and you know it as well as I do. Let's actually measure:

Here are the biggest three headlines I see at nytimes.com right now:

  "West's Resolve to Block Russia Grows Amid Fears of a Protracted War"
  "Likelihood of Trump Indictment in Manhattan Fades as Grand Jury Wraps Up"
  "Piles of Garbage, No Showers: What Lockdown in China Looks Like"

All seem eminently plausible, reasonably descriptive of the content in the article, and (except arguably the China article) not written from an argumentative perspective. I'd happily read any three of these articles and "trust" their content (I did read the Ukraine one).

Here are the three biggest headlines at foxnews.com, fetched within a few seconds of the list above:

  "President Biden's close relationship with Hunter associate who led company with China ties exposed"
  "Liberals lose it after Elon Musk's tweets about the Democratic Party"
  "GOP rep grills Biden's secretary of state over Ukraine 'lies'"

Every single one is written from a decidedly partisan perspective. One contains a value judgement ("lose it"), one uses deceptive quotes to be able to call something a "lie" without evidence (someone else called it a lie, Fox technically didn't), the other is a guilt by association fallacy.

I don't trust a single one of those things to give me the whole story, and I'd be shocked if even partisan republicans did. If I want to know what's "really" happening on any of those issues I know a-priori that I need to find more sources, because this one isn't giving me the whole truth. Giving you the whole truth, essentially, isn't what Fox views as its "job" in the same way that the Times does.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#368

Post by dv_dt » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #111

Everything is not falling apart, though certain institutions may be falling apart. In America, there's definitely been a breakdown of belief in its own institutions. Far more people are skeptical of things like journalism and Silicon Valley; it really wasn't that long ago that the former was constantly salivating over the latter, but now it's more of an openly vulture-carrion relationship because that caters to publi…

If you look at life expectancy in the America, it has been flat to reversing. Understandably with added pressure from Covid, but at a rate higher even with Covid higher than all other well resourced major nations. This not because we are unable, but because those with the power are unwilling to engage fundamental issues. Covid is not the only issue for which this is the case - it was happening before covid.

Multiple major issues with scientific and economic root causes are simply being ignored as stability and promises of improved prosperity provided by civilization is going backwards. This is meets my definition of falling apart.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#369

Post by NationalPark » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

andrewclunn wrote: post #328

NationalPark wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your summary is obscuring some of the nuance in that data. What it shows is that independent voters self-identify as "lean rep"/"lean dem" based on their approval of the current president, which is low right now. Historically though, self-identified independents lean dem more than they lean rep (data in your link). Consider that the last time a Republican presidential candidate won the popular vote was in 200…

You break out a poll to cast a group as fringe. Other people bring up other polls (more recent ones) to counter that argument, and then you shift to a different line of evidence citing "historical trends." Please, take this advice to heart, you are clearly trying to justify a conclusion with whatever evidence you can grab at hand. Take a step back and ask yourself if tribal loyalty is clouding your judgement. We are…

The original point I was making, "republicans are a minority", is true, and the data shows that. This isn't a tribalism thing, it's a question of data analysis. Also, I take umbrage at your patronizing tone. Personally attacking me does not change the data.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#370

Post by CaptArmchair » Fri, Apr 29, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

ozzythecat wrote: post #222

ravenstine wrote: post #111

Everything is not falling apart, though certain institutions may be falling apart. In America, there's definitely been a breakdown of belief in its own institutions. Far more people are skeptical of things like journalism and Silicon Valley; it really wasn't that long ago that the former was constantly salivating over the latter, but now it's more of an openly vulture-carrion relationship because that caters to publi…

I think there’s something more fundamental going on in the US. First, I’d want to say that we as humans love to simplify complex things. There are large macroeconomic trends at play that are boring or hard to explain, and it’s easier to blame immigrants, social media, or blame because that gives us an outlet to make sense out of complexity. For politicians, depending on their political leanings, it gives them a way t…

Well, the US is a nation of some 330 million individuals. It's the 3rd most populous nation after China and India. The US is also the 4th largest country by land mass. It's actually tied with China in that regard.

Why is that important? Because at those scales, a population isn't remotely homogeneous. On the contrary. The US is a massively complex nation with many complex histories, cultures, economies, politics and belief systems. Languages spoken in the US are a massive topic in their own regard. American linguistics is a huge field.

The thing is that all that complexity gets hidden by a few dominant narratives. Noam Chomsky has been instrumental in pointing that out through his career. [1] Even so, the role of the media is just the top of the iceberg. Far more interesting is digging into deeply ingrained belief systems and the formation of identities throughout the history of the US from when settlers first arrived until the present day. One can never really fully escape one's own past, and this rings very true for collective histories.

I wouldn't characterize the US population as collectively having become "lazier" or "more entitled". I think that's short selling a national identity. However, one narrative is that the US fully became a global empire after World War II. The effects of those 5 years, and the preceding decades, from 1918 onwards, have profoundly transformed not only the US but also the world as a whole. Global economic prosperity up to the 1970s (in France, they are called the "Thirty Glorious Years") and it's subsequent decline over the past 50 years are ripples of a turbulent first half of the 20th century.

The fact of the matter is that the US - just like the rest of the world - is facing a new, challenging future with many new, potential and real, fault lines that might give rise to conflict and tension. Many of which still being rooted in historical differences.

It's easy to see how that breeds uncertainty and a sense of "everything is falling apart". Old certainties, dynamics and beliefs that have dominated the thinking of billions for the past 80 to 100 years are now being challenged. The question is how the US, this complex nation such as it is, is going to rise towards the occasion.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky#News_media_and_pr...