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Is everything falling apart?

nonzero.substack.com

191–200 of 970 posts

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#191
The disconnect is so large. What the author calls mere tribalism is freighted and begs the question in regard to his example of US coastal and european elites having more in common with each other than their fellow "working stiff" citizens. What I think he misses is that these elites aren't elite, and the popular/ist reaction to them is to being made subjects of technocrats who always seem to be working for the good of someone else far away but mostly self-dealing to their own benefit.

The reason these elites are not in fact elite is their (our?) advantage is mediated by technology, and so it doesn't matter whether it's social media or muskets, without legitimacy, there is no elite, just a crumbling power vaccum sustained by the control of tech. The hatred we expereince is from the impostor syndrome that comes from the precariousness of this percieved elite status.

People who percieve themselves as having been elevated from ignorance and poverty have unlimited cruelty for others who "held them back," and who they "left behind," and I would argue that's the crux, as there's almost no way to convince them they have been seduced and decieved as a means to unleash and harness that very cruelty for political ends. If you feel justified in being cruel to the ignorant and that they are deserving of humiliation, I am sorry to have to be the one to say, you are the mark.

The author chalks up the social tension Haidt identifies as the effect of neutral and inevitable change, but to me that belief is a kind of affectation. The attitude of, "this is change, learn to cope or be left behind," is the newly bourgois version of "let them eat cake," and Haidt I think identifies that the consequences are looking similar.

In general we can bet that all people will align to whatever they percieve to be power. The notion of change is presented as inevitable, and so aligning to it seems like aligning to the power of the universe and the prevailing forces of history. The notion of history as progress iterates the logic of that idea. But what undermines the legitimacy of the people who percieve each other as an elite, installed and annointed by the inevitable forces of historical progress, is that they exist over a substrate of stability, built for them, and provided to them by people who have invested themselves and their identities in it.

There is an appealing argument to be made that the working stiffs whose parents invested lives to build homes, communities, and institutions so that their children could thrive, have a more persuasively legitimate claim to the fruits of that culture and society than those who identify as a new elite and use tech to deconstruct and redistribute them to the arbitrary and placeless coalitions they assemble to support themselves. The counter to this is that there is only one humanity, which even seems compassionate, until it clicks that a single humanity and shared interdependent planet reduces to a zero-sum power struggle to prevail in the flow of progressive history, with no truth or rules, and in whose pursuit all things are justified.

The explanation for why things are so irreconcilable is not that one side is basically stupid, but this author seems to have fallen for that.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#192
post #8

The constant theme since the dawn of civilization threaded through all of history is that everything is falling apart. Change is continual. History is more like the seasons. Nations rise. Nations fall. Sometimes there's revolt. Sometimes there's peace. There's a continual game of King of the Mountain being played at all levels. So what can we say? Situation Normal - all effed up! Enjoy this phenomenon called life. Yo…

Eh, there have been institutions with almost absurd longevity in history. The catholic church has stood largely unchanged for the 1600 odd years between Constantine and Vatican II. Ancient Egypt was already thousands of years old when Socrates harassed aristocrats in Athens. It's very easy to forget that the revolutions of Britain, France, America, Russia; it happened just a few generations ago, and upended most of t…

>The catholic church has stood largely unchanged for the 1600 odd years

That's a bit of a myth, thrown around a lot but not quite true. It has existed in some form, but by no means remained changeless. The doctrine is substantially similar but then we can say the same thing about Judaism. Here, we're really talking about the organization, which has many issues:

-The East-West schism in 1054 tore the Catholic Church in half.

-Then there was another schism about 500 years later when Martin Luther & subsequent Reformation really splintered things, sparking many violent conflicts over the centuries. I'm sure many Catholics felt like things were falling apart then.

In lesser events that still made people feel things were falling apart:

-Rome was taken & Pope Pius was imprisoned in the Vatican during the Italian Reunification in 1870 there was probably a similar feeling.

-After Vatican II from 1962-1965 I know from my own relatives that they felt (and still feel) that the catholic church began to fall apart.

-The last few decades with countless child abuse scandals.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and the saying is BS.

Good point. Wait, no I disagree and I think history probably does as well. If you'd like to engage in some unmitigated pedantry regarding this topic, check out https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-... which refers to this exact cycle.

The post specifically calls out the saying as “the modern version of this idea has deep roots in Romanticism (c. 1800-1850), a reaction against the reason of the Enlightenment – which makes it more than a touch ironic that this brain-dead meme is so frequently presented as clear logic.”

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#194
post #179

[flagged]

I'd like to see numbers backing it up either way. I'm center left leaning and I largely distrust journalism these days. I don't consistently read any news source and assume appropriately relevant and significant information will filter it's way to me from my network. It's worked well so far and I've managed to keep my biases moderate. It also let's me more easily filter out bs since I'm not consistently immersed in it.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#195
post #8

The constant theme since the dawn of civilization threaded through all of history is that everything is falling apart. Change is continual. History is more like the seasons. Nations rise. Nations fall. Sometimes there's revolt. Sometimes there's peace. There's a continual game of King of the Mountain being played at all levels. So what can we say? Situation Normal - all effed up! Enjoy this phenomenon called life. Yo…

Eh, there have been institutions with almost absurd longevity in history. The catholic church has stood largely unchanged for the 1600 odd years between Constantine and Vatican II. Ancient Egypt was already thousands of years old when Socrates harassed aristocrats in Athens. It's very easy to forget that the revolutions of Britain, France, America, Russia; it happened just a few generations ago, and upended most of t…

> It's a huge political experiment

Perhaps with regards to "scale" this may be true, but in most ways I disagree. There were hundreds of democracies in the ancient world - particularly in Greece - and they all tended to break down along similar lines. The Greeks even had a term for this - stasis - which there's a body of literature about. In stasis, the norms of democratic government are slowly eroded through an escalating series of power plays (each justified by previous excesses). This in turn erodes the public trust in institutions required for society to function. Which usually ends in violence. So I think it's a mistake to assume our situation is unique.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#196
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It seems "compromise" is increasingly used as "What I'm proposing should be considered the compromise and you should listen to me". There's no real debate. Nobody tries to address the other side's concerns. And then we do have, as you say, some fundamental differences in world views and experiences that sometimes form an impasse.

Everybody has internalized the idea that if you ask for twice what you really want, meeting in the middle will give you the thing you actually wanted. So if you notice that the other side is doing the same thing, you double it again...

They never read Never Split The Difference. Negotiations are supposed to be value based and each side should listen to the true concerns of the other.

That said, I don't think the political sides are really asking for twice what they want. It seems very clear on most subjects that they really do want all that they are asking for, but will occasionally accept less and continuing to press for the rest in the long run.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nations rise. ... Sometimes there's peace. In short: sometimes things aren't falling apart. For a few decades we enjoyed one of the great periods of peace and prosperity. That was surely doomed to end eventually, but I wish it could last a while longer.

It's an endless cycle. As the saying goes... Hard times make strong men Strong men make good times Good times make weak men And weak men make hard times.

I've always thought that saying is pretty weak, not only because of the bias that anyone believes it will tend to characterise themselves as one of the "strong men", but also because what one side characterises as good times, another side will characterise as bad. The end of WW2 was a good time for the allies, pretty devastating for Germany, and yet we don't see Germany in current times as on a completely different trajectory than the rest of us, its actually probably the most average of the former allied countries.

Also the political perspective, what the left would characterise as good times the right would probably characterise as bad, and visa versa. At that point its no longer strong and weak men, but men of one camp and men of another.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#198
This is an interesting response to the original article. My TL;DR for this is something like 'Yes, information tech has always resulted in social upheaval, so notwithstanding the scale and speed of the current iteration, this isn't new. Also, it can result in international social cohesion (aka Nazis of the world unite). The thing is, it feels like the author is telling us not to worry because all of this has happened before (with horrific consequences to those caught in the churn, to borrow my favorite phrase from The Expanse). That is a weak rationalization at best - 'same shit, different day, (albeit global scale, speed of light) so don't worry' isn't as reassuring as it should sound

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#199
I don't understand why people who clearly are traitors to the USA are able to get by with it. In the 1950's they would have been immediately arrested and tried for supporting facist countries. Now they are beloved.

Re: Is everything falling apart?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has a history of political tensions posing a danger to it. For a few years it maybe wasn't one country and quite a significant percentage of the population died sorting that out.

Americans seem to think that we're the only ones who ever had a Civil War and that it is a Really Big Deal, ignoring that there are civil conflicts occurring right now, and with higher body counts, too.

While that's true, I think it's worth noting that a civil war in the country with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world would be Very Bad.
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