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Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

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Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#231

Post by cntainer »

rramadass wrote: post #226

Attractiveness is definitely a factor which subconsciously influences Hiring. Fair or Unfair that is life and we have to deal with it. I have heard that Google tries to control for this by having one panel of people as the Interviewers (i.e. actually meet/talk to the Interviewee) who then write-up their respective reports. This set of reports are then submitted to another panel (who have NOT met/talked to the Intervi…

Won't the bias still be present in the report? For example if a candidate left a good impression on me I'll definitely make sure that the report captures that. Not because I'm a bad actor but because I don't know any better, I don't realize my good impression is biased.

At that point the panel makes the call based on a biased report and it thinks the decision is unbiased which is not true.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#232

Post by leereeves »

sokoloff wrote: post #221
leereeves wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And every group that is now protected was once not protected. Were, say, the actions taken against Alan Turing acceptable simply because they were legal at the time? I must say, I'm surprised to see you defending prejudice. From what I've read of your posts here over the years, I thought you were against such things.

I don’t read anything in GP’s text as defending prejudice, but rather as expressing the reality that judgment (not pre-judgment) is both legal and widely practiced (and frequently helpful or essential in interactions). If I’m hiring for a programming opening, the entire (and proper) purpose of interviewing is to discriminate against people who can’t or won’t be effective programmers. Being “not an effective programme…

Did you really think that I was suggesting it wasn't ok "to discriminate against people who can’t or won’t be effective programmers"?

I think that's a strawman, but a useful one. It helps to establish the bounds of reasonable judgement in hiring. I think most people will agree that "can't or won't do the job" is reasonable.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#233

Post by xiphias2 »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #222
xiphias2 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old people are in the same group, though age is definitely related to unattractiveness. With many sick people, it's also impossible not to discriminate (although that also correlates heavily to getting old).

Discriminating by age isn't always unreasonable. It's useful to have different generational perspectives in many areas. For example, I think it's a serious issue that the average age of public servants in Congress is so advanced. The older generations are responsible for training and passing the torch onto the younger generations. The older generation can't keep clinging onto power until they die off.

Congress is full of corrupt people, it has nothing to do with age discrimination. You won't get an old person ever joining the party, all the people who you are talking about built their political power by being corrupt for all their lives.

,, The older generations are responsible for training and passing the torch onto the younger generations.''

That's not how the world works anymore. But of course experienced people are payed well to manage unexperienced.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#234

Post by sokoloff »

leereeves wrote: post #232
sokoloff wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t read anything in GP’s text as defending prejudice, but rather as expressing the reality that judgment (not pre-judgment) is both legal and widely practiced (and frequently helpful or essential in interactions). If I’m hiring for a programming opening, the entire (and proper) purpose of interviewing is to discriminate against people who can’t or won’t be effective programmers. Being “not an effective programme…

Did you really think that I was suggesting it wasn't ok "to discriminate against people who can’t or won’t be effective programmers"? I think that's a strawman, but a useful one. It helps to establish the bounds of reasonable judgement in hiring. I think most people will agree that "can't or won't do the job" is reasonable.

I’m struggling to find where else in dragonwriter’s words you could be finding support for prejudice. It’s less of a strawman than it was a simple example of where discriminating among multiple candidates is okay.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#235

Post by jameshart »

turing_complete wrote: post #189
projektfu wrote: post #16

When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person int…

I am living in a country where photos on a resume are the norm and for me it is the other way round. I am interviewing a lot of people at the moment and having a picture with the resume really helps thinking of the applicant as a human being, rather than just a character sheet with skills and abilities. It also helps to remember and associate resumes, it's easier to relate a portrait to a set of skills and a CV than…

Honestly I'm surprised it's acceptable for resumes presented to me as a hiring manager to even have names on them, let alone photos. Humans are hardwired to make snap judgements about people based on a first visual impression, and a photo at the top of a resume will massively color the rest of your assessment.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#236

Post by leereeves »

sokoloff wrote: post #234
leereeves wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really think that I was suggesting it wasn't ok "to discriminate against people who can’t or won’t be effective programmers"? I think that's a strawman, but a useful one. It helps to establish the bounds of reasonable judgement in hiring. I think most people will agree that "can't or won't do the job" is reasonable.

I’m struggling to find where else in dragonwriter’s words you could be finding support for prejudice. It’s less of a strawman than it was a simple example of where discriminating among multiple candidates is okay.

> It’s less of a strawman than it was a simple example of where discriminating among multiple candidates is okay.

Why add such an example here? No one has claimed that discriminating among multiple candidates is never okay.

I'm simply challenging the idea that the law is a useful guide as to whether discrimination is ok.

I like a phrase you used. Decisions should be based on "judgment (not pre-judgment)".

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#237

Post by grkvlt »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #201
turing_complete wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting physical fitness in the same bucket as height, gender, and race is a category error. Whether someone is fit or obese tells you a lot about their lifestyle and daily choices. You cannot change your facial structure or tallness (yet), but fitness is definitely a signal for discipline and mental strength.

...but fitness is definitely a signal for discipline and mental strength No, it doesn't. Not being fit merely tells you that they might have lifestyle choices different from your own. Or they might be female with PCOS. Or they might have a disease that causes fatigue or pain when they exercise. Heck, that might be the very reason for their desk job. Or a history of food insecurity and really need the insurance the jo…

true. but, it could also mean they are demonstrating traits that make them a more desirable candidate!

for example, if they have recently made the decision to stop smoking cigarettes, thereby making a positive change in their lifestyle and health, this shows strength of character. it also demonstrates their ability to question past poor decisions rather than give in to the sunk cost fallacy, and then take steps to correct them. and of course, it also tends to make you put on weight [0] ... although not much more that 10 lb or 5 kg it seems, so interviewer beware, i guess ;)

0. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000811.htm>

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#238

Post by rramadass »

cntainer wrote: post #231
rramadass wrote: post #226

Attractiveness is definitely a factor which subconsciously influences Hiring. Fair or Unfair that is life and we have to deal with it. I have heard that Google tries to control for this by having one panel of people as the Interviewers (i.e. actually meet/talk to the Interviewee) who then write-up their respective reports. This set of reports are then submitted to another panel (who have NOT met/talked to the Intervi…

Won't the bias still be present in the report? For example if a candidate left a good impression on me I'll definitely make sure that the report captures that. Not because I'm a bad actor but because I don't know any better, I don't realize my good impression is biased. At that point the panel makes the call based on a biased report and it thinks the decision is unbiased which is not true.

The bias can be made negligent by mandating a certain format to the report (some Google insider has to provide this detail) and due to the fact that multiple such reports go into the decision-making.

As an example no words which might create a impression but sticking to facts. The inference is left to the second panel. For example instead of saying the candidate thought hard about the given problem say something like the candidate tried out 3 different solutions to the problem over the interview time period. The first panel are merely conveyors of Data; so their reports have to be detailed and to the point.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#239

Post by skeeter2020 »

turing_complete wrote: post #189
projektfu wrote: post #16

When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person int…

I am living in a country where photos on a resume are the norm and for me it is the other way round. I am interviewing a lot of people at the moment and having a picture with the resume really helps thinking of the applicant as a human being, rather than just a character sheet with skills and abilities. It also helps to remember and associate resumes, it's easier to relate a portrait to a set of skills and a CV than…

> It will only push it to a later stage of the interview process.

Isn't this preferable though, when there's hopefully other, more meaningful, evidence that can potentially mitigate these easy but weaker biases?

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#240

Post by iamacyborg »

nostromo wrote: post #81
projektfu wrote: post #16

When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person int…

There's a lot of data out there showing that attractiveness, fitness (as in, not obese), and tallness are all massive biases in the workplace -- much bigger in many studies than biases around gender and ethnicity even. I don't know why these forms of identity are almost entirely ignored, while we obsess over others. Imagine if tech companies published the height, weight, and facial symmetry of their workforces, like…

At my company we joke about how many of us hired during covid are really short. Remote hiring seems to have been a great leveller, at least on that one front.
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