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Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

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Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#151

The patent in question that was invalidated [0]: Wireless image distribution system and method Abstract A system and method for distributing at least one digital photographic image is presented, the system and method comprising at least one capturing device and at least one receiving device disposed in a communicative relation with one another via at least one wireless network. In particular, the capturing device is…

Being a patent examiner must be a real trip.

You put your toothpaste on slightly different bristles of your toothbrush than yesterday? NOVEL!!

You take a slightly different route backing out of your driveway. NOVEL!!

You write a cheque, and use a date that's one day later than any other date that has ever existed before? NOVEL!!

You stir your coffee 4 times instead of 3 times? NOVEL!!

I only wish I could experience this much novelty in my day-to-day life.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#152

> “offers a number of ways to wirelessly share photos online such as through social media.” How was it possible to patent this in 2018? https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/01/50/f8/a8e7c12...

> How was it possible to patent this in 2018? Easy. I'm a former patent examiner and in my view, the root cause of most bad patents is obviously the lack of time patent examiners get. Most people here don't understand how patents are granted. Patent examiners don't get a lot of time. If I'm an examiner, and I can't find it in the time provided, and the application doesn't have some other issues (101, 112, etc.), the…

> the root cause of most bad patents is obviously the lack of time patent examiners get.

It takes about 30 seconds to realize that the above patent has zero novelty.

I'm not going to disagree with the patent office being underfunded, but the fact is that whoever granted this patent had a complete lack of critical reasoning skills, and no amount of time was going to help that.

I see this all the time with the patent office. They'll approve any madlib-style patent without thinking about it at all. Any patent of the form "______ wirelessly" gets approved. "________ with a computer" is the other offender. Sure, maybe they reject it on the first pass, but it always makes it through the second pass.

Want to know the truth about how patent approval works? Talk to a patent attorney who files them. Here's some true things about getting your patent accepted:

1. Novelty doesn't matter at all.

2. The lawyer doesn't need to understand anything about the technology to write up the patent. They do need a few of your buzzwords, but that's it.

3. Patents always get rejected the first time, and then if your lawyer is any good they always get accepted the first time.

I've got a fistful of patents myself, and the acceptance of the patent application had no relationship with the inventiveness of the invention.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree the USPTO should be better funded and examiners should have more time, what I find problematic is the attitude of the current approach, and of your solutions. That there is a torrent of bad patents, and the USPTO needs enough resources to fight them off, or they'll break through. No! The USPTO is not a defending army trying to keep out barbarians. It grants patents. If it does not have time, or resource…

> No! The USPTO is not a defending army trying to keep out barbarians. It grants patents. If it does not have time, or resources, then it does not grant patents. If the patent examiner feels they don't have enough time, the patent is denied - too bad. You can re-file, paying a fee for extended examination. Rejections can not be arbitrary. If the examiner can't find prior art but wants to reject the application, what…

You are telling me how things currently work, I am talking about how they should work.

I never said to reject things arbitrarily. Only if there is not enough time for an examination. Think of it as putting things on a backlog. If faster turn-around is wanted, more funding can be provided. Lack of funding should only make the work slower, not broaden patentability.

> I'm afraid that you don't know what you're talking about here. Obviousness is a prior art rejection

I'm sorry but this is absurd, and if the patent office functions using this definition makes it no less absurd. Why would US patent law require both non-obviousness and lack of prior art, if the two are the same? The fact that claiming obviousness without prior art "never works" in the USPTO is just evidence of its deep dysfunction.

I sympathize with working in a bureaucracy that seems built to produce bad outcomes, but conflating arbitrary rejections with asking for more time/putting things on a back-log, obviousness, and prior art, really does not inspire confidence. It smells like reasoning deformed by a broken bureaucracy, rather than sensible application of principles or the spirit of the law.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#154

> “offers a number of ways to wirelessly share photos online such as through social media.” How was it possible to patent this in 2018? https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/01/50/f8/a8e7c12...

> How was it possible to patent this in 2018? Easy. I'm a former patent examiner and in my view, the root cause of most bad patents is obviously the lack of time patent examiners get. Most people here don't understand how patents are granted. Patent examiners don't get a lot of time. If I'm an examiner, and I can't find it in the time provided, and the application doesn't have some other issues (101, 112, etc.), the…

> The most effective way to eliminate bad patents would be to increase the amount of time patent examiners get.

I disagree. I think the most effective way to eliminate bad patents would be to eliminate patents altogether. If there are no patents then there can be no bad patents:)

More realistically, it would be more efficient to stop bad patents before they make it to the patent office and waste patent officers' time. And the best way to do that is probably to reduce the incentives to file bad patents. I don't know what the most effective way to do that is though, maybe expire patents sooner, limit the number of patents an entity can file in a period of time, increase the fee for each additional patent filed, a penalty for patents that are rejected or invalidated, require you to actually produce (or license to someone else to produce) the thing you patent in order to keep it, etc.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#155
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yahoo Photos launched in 2000 - even if it was filed in 2008 that's ridiculous

It's likely that Yahoo Photos in 2000 did not do it --== Wirelessly ==-- (imagine Spongebob rainbow meme https://imgflip.com/i/6e8qvo there) and thus wouldn't be prior art.

Easy solution would be to reject inventions that narrow down their claim in a way that crosses two layers in the OSI stack. That would instantly kill all claims of doing X…on a computer, or doing X…wirelessly.

Another way to put it is that integration should not be patentable. Everybody knows images can be serialized to a bitstream and that bitstreams can be sent wirelessly, each on their own is novel, but combining them no. Otherwise I could patent delivery of pepperoni pizza on a electric scooter, even if someone else patented pizzas and scooters already.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#157
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, examiners are evaluated based upon the number of applications they process. Well that sounds like it could be the entire problem.

Well, not the entire problem, but yeah, a major chunk of it. The problem of how to evaluate examiners' productivity is pretty similar to evaluating software developers'. Unfortunately, the measure that is being used is akin to counting PRs merged. It isn't hard to see how the PTO arrived at this method of evaluation: patent examiner time is their most constrained resource and they aren't provided the funds to hire mo…

Yeah I debated using that word. Probably not entirely accurate. Something like “if you change that all the other problems are insignificant” might be better.

I think your explanation of how this can happen is plausible. But it’s also the problem with treating government services like businesses.

USPTO incentives should be aligned with the public good, not the bottom line.

This differs from a service like the USPS or Amtrak that address a market failure.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#158
post #24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When GNOME was raising the 150k they said they would not settle and would battle until the patent was overturned. People donated based upon this and then GNOME settled. This is why when things like the he said/she said argument with System 76 have come up I am mystified that some people are ready to believe GNOME's take. They have already shown that they are a project whose leadership's word can't be trusted.

According to the Gnome website they didn't have to pay their lawyers, so I'm wondering where that money went. > GNOME was represented pro-bono by Matt Berkowitz, Kieran Kieckhefer, Joy Wang and Larry Crouch from Shearman & Sterling LLP. https://foundation.gnome.org/2020/05/20/patent-case-against-...

> I'm wondering where that money went.

I was wondering the same about the $1M donation they got in 2018. Turns out they misallocated a significant portion of it to things like social outreach programs.

There is nothing wrong with having SRPs if you're a multi-billion tech giant, but a underfunded open source product shouldn't be wasting money on social programs when their primary product was broken (which, in 2018, gnome3 certainly was). At the very least, they could have used it to hold proper user-focus groups to find out how their users actually used their product.

I think the organization is suffering from a serious mismanagement issue.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No! The USPTO is not a defending army trying to keep out barbarians. It grants patents. If it does not have time, or resources, then it does not grant patents. If the patent examiner feels they don't have enough time, the patent is denied - too bad. You can re-file, paying a fee for extended examination. Rejections can not be arbitrary. If the examiner can't find prior art but wants to reject the application, what…

You are telling me how things currently work, I am talking about how they should work. I never said to reject things arbitrarily. Only if there is not enough time for an examination. Think of it as putting things on a backlog. If faster turn-around is wanted, more funding can be provided. Lack of funding should only make the work slower, not broaden patentability. > I'm afraid that you don't know what you're talking…

> Why would US patent law require both non-obviousness and lack of prior art, if the two are the same? The fact that claiming obviousness without prior art "never works" in the USPTO is just evidence of its deep dysfunction.

In US patent law, the word "non-obvious" refers to differences between the claimed invention and prior art. See 35 USC 103: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/103

I agree that this conflicts with the colloquial use, which may be why European law says "lacks inventive step" instead of "non-obvious".

I get the impression that "prior art" to you means that the claimed invention was previously disclosed, which is a rejection under 35 USC 102. But that has to be exactly as disclosed. It's a high bar to meet.

> It smells like reasoning deformed by a broken bureaucracy, rather than sensible application of principles or the spirit of the law.

This speculation is neither necessary or helpful.

Re: Gnome patent troll stripped of patent rights

#160

I mean, to the author, thank you. Can't believe it cost $150,000+ for the open source community to go through that litigation... Dorsey, and all the SV billionaires who made money off open source, perhaps it's time you "contribute back" by financing the fight against patent trolls...

> I mean, to the author, thank you. Can't believe it cost $150,000+ for the open source community to go through that litigation...

150k isn't much. Probably doesn't get you through initial motions against a well funded adversary.

> Dorsey, and all the SV billionaires who made money off open source,

I wouldn't know about his actions in other open source areas, but Dorsey specifically has directly funded defense against patent and vexatious litigation around Bitcoin and against open source developers. https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022...

In particular, a billionaire funded party filed a lawsuit against a dozen current and former developers (including myself!) alleging that we owned him some $6 billion dollars in damages for failing to grant him bitcoins that he claims he lost due to a 'hack' (which sounded like something out of a bad movie plot). The plaintiff alleged that the software's MIT license was irrelevant and that the people wrote the software owe a fiduciary duty to make whole users who lost funds through no fault of the developers. ... a conclusion that would probably mark the end of volunteer contributions in open source generally since no sane person would voluntarily subject themselves to unlimited liability due to publishing some free code.

Fortunately, at considerable cost we were able to convince the court that they failed to establish that their action had more than a fanciful potential for success and got it dismissed in initial motions (though presumably they'll appeal). It also sounds like the same party intends to launch a multitude of additional lawsuits on other basis including patent infringement (which they've been filing 3-4 patents per week in furtherance of, in an apparent attack via sheer volume), and has already filed defamation lawsuits against several journalists and community members ( https://cswarchive.info/ ). Direct defense costs across all parties and actions is in the millions now, without counting the man hours and stress of the defendants, and continuing to grow without a clear end in sight. And all this is just trouble created by a single entity.

Support from those who benefit from open source systems is crucial but because of the astronomical cost of defending even laughable lawsuits attackers will continue to have an upper hand without public policy changes.

We benefit substantially already from the 2010 SPEECH act, which protects US persons from the UK's abusive libel regime. The EU is apparently considering similar legislation with respect to the UK that if in place would likely have protected at least one of the people currently being sued. But the abuse of lawsuits for coercion and extortion aren't limited to libel or the UK-- rather, attackers will use the easiest path and with that one closed they'll use others.

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