Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense • Hacker News Board

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#81

Post by Wazako » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

mnd999 wrote: post #16

karxxm wrote: post #6

> The idea to get rid of having to trust centralized organizations might sound tempting, but it doesn’t work: Blockchains don’t get rid of “trust”, they just change, who has to be trusted. What if a group of trusted organizations run a blockchain together?

Plenty of people trying to sell private blockchain snake-oil for precisely that purpose. It’s all rubbish, just use a database.

the blockchain is just a database. a database timed and validated by block. After all a database has advantages / constraints.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#82

Post by dmitriid » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #27

Eisfunke wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As explained in the text: the point isn't that these problems aren't solved by blockchain, they're amplified. E.g.: scams existed without blockchain, but now they're forever and permanently engraved into the blockchain. Code was always flawed, but now a bug isn't just a bug, it's a bug in a smart contract with potentially disastrous consequences that can never be properly fixed.

This is not necessarily a flaw in the technology, it's just one way in which it differs from what we are used to. I think most coiners, who skew strongly libertarian, would argue that it's up to you to make sure your smart contracts work.

> I think most coiners, who skew strongly libertarian, would argue that it's up to you to make sure your smart contracts work.

Ah yes, it's up to the user to review and debug code written in an esoteric programming language to make sure that it works... When even creators of said contracts can't find bugs in their code and fall prey to mistakes (sometimes after multiple audits)

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#83

Post by automatic6131 » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

baisq wrote: post #20

ahartmetz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does turn it into dangerous nonsense is the "solution looking for a problem" phenomenon, fueled by techno-libertarians and more so plain greedy people, looking for a way to justify and entrench the mostly useless technology that makes them rich.

Quoted post unavailable.

Compare romance scams, authorise push payment fraud, and ponzi schemes.

All of these make someone rich, and all are negative sums, being in fact worse than useless.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#84

Post by tirpen » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #51

mightyRodri wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no baby. The technology does not solve technical problems that havent been solved better. The only thing bchains does is give ppl with a lot of money to become stakeholders, the possibility to comodify even more parts of the internet. Thats the only upside of the technology, scam ppl for their money. https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/against-crypto.html https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

What technical solution do you have for multiple parties needing to transact where they do not trust each other and cannot depend on a third party or the court system for dispute resolution? I'll wait.

My suggestion is: "grow up".

All of human society is based on trust, and it works just fine and has for centuries.

Who would even want to live in a trust less society? That sounds like hell.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#85

Post by hapiri » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

karxxm wrote: post #6

> The idea to get rid of having to trust centralized organizations might sound tempting, but it doesn’t work: Blockchains don’t get rid of “trust”, they just change, who has to be trusted. What if a group of trusted organizations run a blockchain together?

Then it's just a regular network, hence why permissioned / private blockchains are a lies to crypto enthusiasts

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#86

Post by Grustaf » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

okintheory wrote: post #55

Grustaf wrote: post #18

I'm very sceptical of blockchain (though I've been in crypto off and on since 2013) but most of the arguments in this article are non-sensical. For example: > But even if all code was without mistakes, blockchains can’t do anything against threats like scams, fraud, hacking of devices with keys for the blochain or just plain old typos in a coin transfer. I don't think protection against human-factor scams and frauds…

It seems a bit off to assert that "people feel it is a price worth paying" when almost all purchases online are made with credit cards which have some protections against fraud, and almost none are made with blockchains in comparison. It seems like so far, most people don't think it's a price worth paying?

I was referring to people in crypto. Obviously the general public prefers traditional payment systems because most people have no problem trusting that the banks will do the right thing.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#87

Post by sprash » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

hapiri wrote: post #71

phase5 wrote: post #46

The author doesn't understand the value of distributed censorship resistant consensus that's secured by energy. Also the author fails to consider the situation of 80% of humanity who live in countries that experience hyperinflation frequently. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/check-your-financial-pri...

Proof of Work is only as good as the assumption that CPU power and energy are guaranteed to be equally distributed, also everyone must have equal access on the network. Which we've seen is not the case.

No, Proof of Work does not need to be equally distributed. Even if just one entity does all the work it is incentivized that its blocks are accepted by the community otherwise all the work was for nothing and the miner makes a loss.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#88

Post by hiq » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

mike_d wrote: post #51

mightyRodri wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no baby. The technology does not solve technical problems that havent been solved better. The only thing bchains does is give ppl with a lot of money to become stakeholders, the possibility to comodify even more parts of the internet. Thats the only upside of the technology, scam ppl for their money. https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/against-crypto.html https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

What technical solution do you have for multiple parties needing to transact where they do not trust each other and cannot depend on a third party or the court system for dispute resolution? I'll wait.

That only holds if you donate your BTC. In practice you want to buy something with it. How do you guarantee that you do receive the thing you're buying once you've given your BTC?

You need to trust this other channel through which you're receiving it.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#89

Post by frankenst1 » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

> But even if all code was without mistakes, blockchains can’t do anything against threats like scams, fraud, hacking of devices with keys for the blochain or just plain old typos in a coin transfer.

Nirvana fallacy. Bitcoin allows people to control their own money, if they decide to give it to scammers, it's not Bitcoins fault.

> The absolutely perverted energy usage in times of climate change is only one of those (this is mainly caused by proof-of-work, still used by all relevant public blockchains, and general inefficiency). [8]

Bitcoin provides truly self-custodial, borderless money to the world and only causes I would not call that "perverted energy usage".

Video streaming, video games, porn, dryers are causing similar or higher CO2 emissions. Wasted foods alone cause 6% of CO2. Calling these emissions useful but at the same time denying unbanked people access to financial services reeks of financial privilege.

Also the cited source [8] is an employee of the dutch central bank which is probably as opposed to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency as you can possibly get.

The rest of the article cites several projects which use the blockchain label to generate publicity. While this criticism is warranted, it should be directed at the projects, not at blockchain tech in general.

Re: Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense

#90

Post by Grustaf » Thu, Apr 28, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

isodev wrote: post #39

Grustaf wrote: post #18

I'm very sceptical of blockchain (though I've been in crypto off and on since 2013) but most of the arguments in this article are non-sensical. For example: > But even if all code was without mistakes, blockchains can’t do anything against threats like scams, fraud, hacking of devices with keys for the blochain or just plain old typos in a coin transfer. I don't think protection against human-factor scams and frauds…

> I don't think protection against human-factor scams and frauds was ever a goal, you certainly never hear it as an argument. These features and capabilities are usually implied for financial systems. It's really just common sense.

Yes, it is, in the traditional financial system. Crypto is an attempt at building an alternative, with different trade-offs. You might not agree with the trade-offs, most people don't - I mostly don't, but it's definitely a choice, it's not inevitable.