Live data from Hacker News

Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

detroitnews.com

91–100 of 510 posts

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#91

Seems like the bubble burst is going to be more sudden than we thought. 30 year mortgages are suddenly at nearly 5.5-6%, listings are sitting on the market for longer, and multiple cities are cracking down on Airbnb.

I mean, it's not really a burst, we're just hearing the hissing noise of the obvious leak. The true demand from people with the intend to actually live in the estates has been constantly decreasing since around 2000; the real salarys dropped since then, so did the buying power. The only reasons people found buyers at x3-x10 (!) prices were a) that there is a class of people wealthy enough to still afford the purchase…

I think you have missed a source of demand, and I think it's important.

As housing became more and more expensive to young professionals, some people in this group have worked harder and harder to buy property, even to the point where it no longer seems rational. For example, parents taking a lot of wealth out of their retirement savings or their own homes to assist children in buying. Professionals are working more than otherwise makes sense for their stage in life (young families with two full-time parents). They are committing a large share of their monthly budget, often right until the start of retirement.

They do this because they believe in the importance of owning property - beyond any reasonable narrow economic justification.

Of course, there is an inequality aspect to this - not everyone's parents have capital, not everyone can command a high enough wage.

But crucially, the presence of this group of people arguably turns the bubble into something else. These buyers put a floor on the market. If prices drop even a little, or something else changes to make mortgages slightly more affordable, they rush in and buy the dip. By doing this, they sustain the high prices for everyone else in the market.

This will probably happen now. Higher rates will make current prices unsustainable. As soon as they correct to the point where monthly payments are back to what they were last year, there will be buyers, only too happy to overextend themselves to get out of renting.

It's inaccurate to characterize these people as likely to default. They are actually very good mortgage risks - they have already shown themselves to be very committed to ownership. And the resources which got them into a position to buy mean they will keep on paying short of a disaster. The truly unrealistic borrowers of pre-2008 have never been let back into the market.

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#92

Buying a home mortgage is signing yourself over to a lifetime of servitude and uncertainty if you lose your income stream. Buy a property out of pocket to live in and make the most of a DIY life at a fraction of the cost and an odd stress differential, or just keep renting and be agile enough to roll with the punches.

Compare each strategy for each decade over the past 100 years...

By a substantial margin, having a large home mortgage leaves you in a better financial position the vast majority of the decades, even if you lose your job and are forced to sell mid decade.

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#93
post #87
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really interesting. Is it normal in UK (thinking £) to get such an extremely short (introductory) loan and then refinance every few years? In Germany, most people take a 10y fixed rate at least to reduce such risk.

Yes, here 2 and 5 years is the norm. There's talk of longer terms becoming more popular but that's probably just talk due to the current climate of rising rates. I've spoken to a few brokers lately and not one even mentioned anything longer than 5. It feels like there's a few signs now that the so-called "18-year property cycle" is due to be cut short this time around. I've only recently heard the idea so I'm not sur…

7 and 10 years are quite widely available now, although they're still not particularly popular.

Not sure why brokers didn't mention them to you. Perhaps they like to show people low headline rates, or perhaps they see longer initial terms as bad for the broking business?

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#94

Buying a home mortgage is signing yourself over to a lifetime of servitude and uncertainty if you lose your income stream. Buy a property out of pocket to live in and make the most of a DIY life at a fraction of the cost and an odd stress differential, or just keep renting and be agile enough to roll with the punches.

Getting a mortgage is the easiest way to build wealth through government subsidized leverage (mortgage interest deduction).

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#95

Buying a home mortgage is signing yourself over to a lifetime of servitude and uncertainty if you lose your income stream. Buy a property out of pocket to live in and make the most of a DIY life at a fraction of the cost and an odd stress differential, or just keep renting and be agile enough to roll with the punches.

I started buying a house 15 years ago. I have moved twice since and now live in a nice house that I have paid off fully, I overpaid as much as possible. Maintainance is easy. Now and then something breaks and I pay someone to fix it. This has given me enormous peace of mind.

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#96
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's not really a burst, we're just hearing the hissing noise of the obvious leak. The true demand from people with the intend to actually live in the estates has been constantly decreasing since around 2000; the real salarys dropped since then, so did the buying power. The only reasons people found buyers at x3-x10 (!) prices were a) that there is a class of people wealthy enough to still afford the purchase…

I think you have missed a source of demand, and I think it's important. As housing became more and more expensive to young professionals, some people in this group have worked harder and harder to buy property, even to the point where it no longer seems rational. For example, parents taking a lot of wealth out of their retirement savings or their own homes to assist children in buying. Professionals are working more…

I did not miss those people, but my wording was loaded and so the point got lost in translation. I implicitly captured them under b) "[...] it's dumb to buy estates where the price is set by people and institutions that have n times your own income/net worth", where dumb is a loaded term for your >"to the point where it no longer seems rational".

>But crucially, the presence of this group of people arguably turns the bubble into something else.

I agree with this, it's not a bubble in the sense of 2008. I said so in the comment you replied to! We're in the same boat here.

By the way: I'm precicely in that demographic. I just turned 30 and do well for myself as an employed consultant, but I wouldn't consider buying the dip, unless the dip is at least ~100% of the current market prices (which I don't see happening, but who knows). Going in debt for 30-40 years has zero appeal for me, it just seems like a terrible move. The counter-argument I hear from people my age group is always the same "but then you'll never own anything!" -- then so be it, whats the point?! Even if someone gave me a million Euros, I wouldn't spend 600k of those on a house and then another 300k on renovations, that seems like a terrible waste of resources. With that kind of money, you can buy three small companies in Germany, or stop worrying about retirement, etc. Buying estate = de facto being in debt for the entire career and then some, plus having to pay all repairs, anything. I don't see how that would ease my life at all. If someone wants to give me a house, nice, but buying a house just for the sake of doing so reminds me of a signature I often read on market-ticker.org -- leave the rats race to the rats.

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#97
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question is: why would you fix for 30yr when you know you're paying multiple points to offset market uncertainty? To fix your monthly payment for the next 30 years. Furthermore, with a fixed rate mortgage you can benefit from interest rate volatility since you can always buy back the debt at par. In practice this means you can: 1. Take out a fixed rate loan for $n at x% 2. If the rate doubles (to 2x%) you can re…

Can you explain point 2? Why do you refinance if rates go up? Surely the point is that if rates go up you've locked in a better rate How does half your debt disappear if rates go up?

The rates usually don't go up because the lender got greedy and felt like screwing you harder. If the mortgage rate doubles, that's because your money is now worth less than it used to be. This also likely means that your income is going to grow soon enough, so you wouldn't have much trouble repaying your loan. While your remaining loan is still nominally $N, if you took a loan today for the remaining part using the paid-off equity as collateral, you could likely get twice as much and the lender would proceed accordingly.

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#98

Seems like the bubble burst is going to be more sudden than we thought. 30 year mortgages are suddenly at nearly 5.5-6%, listings are sitting on the market for longer, and multiple cities are cracking down on Airbnb.

I mean, it's not really a burst, we're just hearing the hissing noise of the obvious leak. The true demand from people with the intend to actually live in the estates has been constantly decreasing since around 2000; the real salarys dropped since then, so did the buying power. The only reasons people found buyers at x3-x10 (!) prices were a) that there is a class of people wealthy enough to still afford the purchase…

> When 90 (?) percent of people simply lack the buying power to participate in the real estate market, but the other 10% happily sell each other estates, that's not a bubble, the real estate market just stopped interfacing with the vast majority of the population.

This. And it was not only happening in the housing market, but also in a few other markets such as arts and certain jewelry. What happened during the last ~10 years is that the huge loads of money pumped into the financial system by central banks ended up with only a select group of people, who just got richer and richer and were looking for ways to spend or invest their excess money. And that caused an inflation in the markets where they liked to spend it.

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#99
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And compared to a couple of years ago, that's really expensive. The mortgage we took out two years ago (2 year fix, ~60% LTV) had a introductory rate of 1.2%. That falls back to 3.something variable in September. We'll probably look for another fixed but current 2yr fixed rates seem to be around 2.3% (plus a £1k application). That's an uncomfortable increase on a big loan. What's interesting is the rates on bigger lo…

That's really interesting. Is it normal in UK (thinking £) to get such an extremely short (introductory) loan and then refinance every few years? In Germany, most people take a 10y fixed rate at least to reduce such risk.

Not only that, it’s popular to get “tracker” mortgages. It’s the Bank of England base rate plus a fixed rate. So it’s never actually fixed. My “Lifetime Tracker” is BOE+1.29% for 25 years. So it’s varied from 1.39% to 2.04% total charge in the last 10 years. If you bought a lifetime tracker today it would be BOE+2.7%. 20 years ago they were as good as BOE+0.25%

Re: Rocket Mortgage to trim 8% of workforce as home-loan market shrinks

#100
Rocket Mortgage has a pretty modern stack, and they make good use of third party API’s to aid their processing. There’s an entire fintech ecosystem that are providers for mortgage providers like Rocket Mortgage that could be impacted if this turns into a trend.
Post reply on HN