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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#451

Post by Jensson »

klodolph wrote: post #339
rayiner wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is well-intentioned, what was the intention... to dumb down math in high school? Bingo. It's well intentioned, but the intentions aren't to ensure that America can keep up with a rising China. It's shocking to me that people in California aren't more worried about this. About 15 years ago, I was talking to an engineer at Juniper/Cisco. We were joking about how Huawei had copied one of their router designs dow…

In the 1960s, it was the USSR. In the 1980s it was Japan. Now it's China. I'm not trying to suggest that the US is fine and we shouldn't fix anything, but if you look at the world by comparing test scores and grade levels in mathematics, you're going to come to some very warped perceptions about what is important. I'm speaking as someone passionate about STEM education, who got a B.S. in mathematics. The whole situat…

> To take another statistic into account, there are actually many STEM graduates in the US.

No there aren't, at least if you only count homegrown STEM graduates. USA can be a tech powerhouse thanks to brain drain, not thanks to its STEM education. USA is one of the worst in OECD.

https://i.insider.com/5661f406dd0895ff628b46bb?width=600&for...

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#452

Post by idoh »

kodah wrote: post #358
idoh wrote: post #120

SF CA resident, parent of two school age children chiming in. The direction with math seems pretty dismal, in that as of right now, everyone is singly tracked together for math through freshman year of high school. This results in children who have higher aptitudes[1] to not be well served by schools. The majority of people I know who have the means opt out of the public school system, which probably makes the proble…

I think I can respond to your footnote. I went to a Catholic school that split us up into separate tracks for maths specifically in grades 4-8. I was in the upper level math class for a year before they moved me. I had a teacher who celebrated and encouraged bullies, slapped children with a ruler, and threw a chalkboard eraser at me from the front of the classroom because I appeared to be falling asleep. When my grad…

First, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that teacher and that it caused you problems for many years down the line.

I'm trying to figure out how this relates. It sounds like you had a bad experience with tracking, and there is a fundamental issue with tracking where some amount of people will have bad experiences, but ultimately you were able to achieve your potential anyway, so why make the experience bad with tracking if people will eventually get to the right level over time - is that a fair interpretation of your comment?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#453

Post by WhyOhWhyQ »

I'd be interested in trying out the following idea: How about we don't mandate mathematics and science courses in high school, and especially in early college? The benefits of this are two-fold. The people who want to pursue other interests are freer to do so. And, more importantly to me as a mathematics graduate student, the people who are interested in math and science can go much much faster, and attain a higher level earlier on. As far as I can tell, most other countries with successful mathematics cultures operate more like this. In my math PhD program, the foreign students almost universally arrived better prepared (more knowledgeable and skilled) than the Americans. I believe the gen-ed requirements and general lack of specialization in American education may have a role in this.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#454

Post by wardedVibe »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #123
wardedVibe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a math PhD with dyscalcula, I'm very skeptical. I was nearly held back as a child because of poor arithmetic performance, and really only started to be above average when we started on algebra. Poor arithmetic isn't that uncommon among the mathematicians I know.

Interesting. I do not know much about dyscalcula. At an early age do word problems make it worse or better?

I don't think they make much difference either way, as it's specifically the processing of numbers.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#455

Post by keneda7 »

wonnage wrote: post #245
mindcrime wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... Is it? Saying "all mean are created equal" has a lot of interpretations, of which many valid ones do not include "all men are born of equal ability in every regard." Given that some people are born to grow up to be 5'4 and weigh 100lbs and others are born to grow up to 6'7 and 320lbs, it should be clear that not everyone is "equal" at least in terms of the…

Quoted post unavailable.

Could you point out where anyone (besides someone like you arguing for these reforms) has said kids have to pick their course at 10 based on some tests? As far as I can tell, your side of the argument made this up.

It is ironic as you are sayings forcing kids down one path is bad, yet your solutions is to force kids down one path. The current system does not make you choose your path based on a some test at 10.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#456

Post by Aunche »

paulcole wrote: post #435
Aunche wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most things people do aren’t that hard and people have the ability to learn to do them That's true, but it's the small minority of tasks that require real intelligence that often matter the most. A regular person can probably be trained to 95% the skill of an anesthesiologist just by following instructions, but then they would kill the patient during edge cases. The same thing applies to programming too. I had an in…

> A regular person can probably be trained to 95% the skill of an anesthesiologist just by following instructions, but then they would kill the patient during edge cases. You’re making the mistake of assuming anesthesiologists are something other than regular people with training.

Anyone who makes it through medical school is definitely smart by some standard, especially if they end up in a highly competitive specialty like anesthesiology. Does all that intelligence translate to talent for being an anesthesiologist? Probably not, but I'm sure a lot of it does.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#457

Post by DoughnutHole »

digisign wrote: post #233
acomjean wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the "middle" tier math program in high school. But around sophomore year I wanted to get more into science/engineering but you can't switch tiers or catch up to those ahead of you, no matter if you're making extra effort and doing well. It was frustrating. In my case I got a letter about summer school at a local university. So I pre-calced over summer school to get moved into calculus in high school. It hone…

Nice work. However you say you couldn't switch tiers but in the next paragraph you did find a way. So, it sounds like you can.

If he was only able to get on this track due to interventions from outside the school system which many students could not afford or otherwise could not access, then that's a failure of the public school system.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#458

Post by rayiner »

klodolph wrote: post #339
rayiner wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is well-intentioned, what was the intention... to dumb down math in high school? Bingo. It's well intentioned, but the intentions aren't to ensure that America can keep up with a rising China. It's shocking to me that people in California aren't more worried about this. About 15 years ago, I was talking to an engineer at Juniper/Cisco. We were joking about how Huawei had copied one of their router designs dow…

In the 1960s, it was the USSR. In the 1980s it was Japan. Now it's China. I'm not trying to suggest that the US is fine and we shouldn't fix anything, but if you look at the world by comparing test scores and grade levels in mathematics, you're going to come to some very warped perceptions about what is important. I'm speaking as someone passionate about STEM education, who got a B.S. in mathematics. The whole situat…

> The USA accounts for 4% of the world population, and 40% of the top 100 universities in the world. That's fucking weird. I don't have an explanation for it. I'm just saying that the different signals we use for evaluating how good our education system is functioning are giving us radically different pieces of feedback, and our understanding needs to be correspondingly sophisticated.

What would our STEM university departments look like if the next generation of Indian and Chinese kids with good K-12 math educations decided opportunities were good enough at home that they didn’t need to leave their families behind and immigrate to America?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#459

Post by saint_fiasco »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #272
School-Cotton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

How do they deal with the late bloomers? I didn't really find my academic ability, and programming until I was in my twenties.

How did they deal with you, if I may ask?

Is there something you wish they had done differently?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#460

Post by rayiner »

nosefrog wrote: post #429
rayiner wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is well-intentioned, what was the intention... to dumb down math in high school? Bingo. It's well intentioned, but the intentions aren't to ensure that America can keep up with a rising China. It's shocking to me that people in California aren't more worried about this. About 15 years ago, I was talking to an engineer at Juniper/Cisco. We were joking about how Huawei had copied one of their router designs dow…

> affluent Virginia suburb, until I got into a top STEM magnet high school TJ? :P

I couldn’t think of a less douchey way to express that the math education was rigorous compared to even a good American high school.
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