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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#981

Post by coldtea »

rayiner wrote: post #788
coldtea wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Income after taxes and transfer payments has grown for everyone since 1970 And education, housing, and health costs has sky-rocketed, number of "essential services" to pay for (mobile phone, internet, severan "rentier" subscriptions) has increased, while job stability and availability for working and middle class has plummeted... But yes, the top 10%, the types to usually post at HN, never had it better.

But a lot of those requirements are manufactured. Germany has an advanced industrial economy with half the percentage of college graduates we do (just 1/4). So why do we need to act like “cost of living” for everyone has to include saving hundreds of thousands of dollars for college? I agree the top 10% have poor insight into what life is like for everyone else, but that cuts both ways. I think there’s a real misperc…

>Germany has an advanced industrial economy with half the percentage of college graduates we do (just 1/4). So why do we need to act like “cost of living” for everyone has to include saving hundreds of thousands of dollars for college?

Because Germany doesn't treat non-college graduates working class people as "losers".

Germany also has a quite solid social protection, not a cut throat environment where tons of people are a medical bill away from homeless.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#982

Post by coldtea »

qeternity wrote: post #809
coldtea wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Income after taxes and transfer payments has grown for everyone since 1970 And education, housing, and health costs has sky-rocketed, number of "essential services" to pay for (mobile phone, internet, severan "rentier" subscriptions) has increased, while job stability and availability for working and middle class has plummeted... But yes, the top 10%, the types to usually post at HN, never had it better.

> while job stability and availability for working and middle class has plummeted... What?! The labor market has been so strong over the past decade that economists started to wonder if previous paradigms no longer apply (i.e. Phillips curve).

In most empires on the way down, the scholarly narratives and the truth on the field are different things...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#983

Post by 21723 »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #928
21723 wrote: post #605

As a middle-aged man who's been studying this stuff for a while, I'd like to throw in my observations. We are in a Masculine Crisis, and both men and women are suffering, because gender isn't zero-sum, and a society that damages men is just as harmful to heterosexual women, who struggle to find men. Late-stage capitalism's breakdown of the family (which it molded into a bourgeois form, then let rot) happened in black…

I never bought the argument that men are struggling with their masculinity. I was surprised that this even became a topic in tech where programming nerds already have written off being masculine, as classically associated with shooting guns instead of pointers. Basically doing the opposite than pondering in your faculty in your jesus slippers. But I never had the impression anyone took that to heart seriously. Income…

But your point still holds truth, instead of lamenting masculinity (very few people care) perhaps "the left" should reorient itself to actually improve working conditions and most importantly wages.

I largely agree. The left's real mission is unifying, not divisive. (The corporate "woke" left is a ruse designed to divide people against each other by emphasizing identity politics and de-emphasizing class, money, and systemic effects.)

I only point out (or, at least, purport) the existence of a Masculine Crisis because I think it is real enough for people like Peterson and Carlson to capitalize on. Society still tells men they have to "provide" and heterosexual women still expect them to, and if the only way to do so is to humiliate themselves, that's a historically dangerous situation.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#984

Post by AvocadoPanic »

shapefrog wrote: post #908
AvocadoPanic wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure r/childfree has lots of this sort. They often seem a bit too into being childfree to me, I probably wouldn't like their shitty kids anyway. There's an opportunity cost for most life decisions. Sometimes they're obscured. It's often not presented this way but for a cohort of women university and work, displaces marriage and children.

> They often seem a bit too into being childfree to me, I probably wouldn't like their shitty kids anyway. You seem a bit too into being childfull, I probably wouldn't like your shitty kids anyway.

I'm not advocating for more people to have kids. I see people everyday that probably shouldn't have.

But if couples want to, it's doesn't have to be the financial catastrophe that many make it out to be.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#985

Post by DeathArrow »

anonfornoreason wrote: post #453
InTheArena wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a stigma in pushing stable values. In a very real sense, it’s created by a media environment that eschews non-progressive (it’s not liberal - at least in the USA) family structures. Let’s face it, Homer Simpson is the face of traditional American family structures.

When I was in my twenties, I thought having a family before you were in your thirties meant you were kinda dumb. That’s what people who didn’t have ambitions did. Fast forward to now and it is one of my very few regrets. I have three kids, but wish I would have started in my twenties and prioritized family more. When I was in my twenties, the homer Simpsons of the world were idiots. In my thirties, they were the ones…

I've came to the very same conclusions.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#986

Post by Filligree »

franciscop wrote: post #26
Filligree wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I'm genuinely curious about examples you could give about this? Do you consider e.g. /r/personalfinance as "approved" mainstream advice? I believe it caters fairly well to the low-middle-even-high classes, but probably not to the lowest (homeless) or highest (super-rich). Nothing on Reddit is 'mainstream'. Most people have never visited the site.

Fair enough, that's why I was asking whether Reddit advice is similar somehow to mainstream advice. What would you consider mainstream advice then? Do you have any article that shows mainstream advice (for the USA)?

I don't live in the USA, and have never been exposed to its mainstream. Probably the best way to find out would be to go outside, talk to random people, and ask them where they get their news and/or advice?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#987

Post by MathCodeLove »

coldtea wrote: post #981
rayiner wrote: post #788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a lot of those requirements are manufactured. Germany has an advanced industrial economy with half the percentage of college graduates we do (just 1/4). So why do we need to act like “cost of living” for everyone has to include saving hundreds of thousands of dollars for college? I agree the top 10% have poor insight into what life is like for everyone else, but that cuts both ways. I think there’s a real misperc…

> Germany has an advanced industrial economy with half the percentage of college graduates we do (just 1/4). So why do we need to act like “cost of living” for everyone has to include saving hundreds of thousands of dollars for college? Because Germany doesn't treat non-college graduates working class people as "losers". Germany also has a quite solid social protection, not a cut throat environment where tons of peop…

> Because Germany doesn't treat non-college graduates working class people as "losers".

Neither does the United States? Not sure where you're getting this idea from. Most people I know revere trades as they're a known way to make great money without a degree. And, anecdotally speaking, I've managed to get great jobs as a software engineer without a degree. We treat non-college graduates who don't try to ascend above retail or fast-food as losers - and for good reason.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#988

Post by wpietri »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #646
wpietri wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, think of the men! Single moms outnumber single dads 5:1. People in general need more education, but much more the men. Partriarchy left women holding the bag for a lot of things, so they were more prepared for a post-patriarchy world. Men will need more explicit support in learning to adapt to their new societal role. > This only confirms men are more often outed as poor male partners. Technically true, but u…

>Single moms outnumber single dads 5:1. People in general need more education, but much more the men. How is this relevant to your point? You might as well turn it around and ask why single moms are selecting men who leave them to be baby mommies. Birth control is still accessible to many and rape isn't so omnipresent these women didn't have a choice in the matter. >Men will need more explicit support in learning to…

> pressing an agenda by presenting information and then retroactively fitting your rationality into it

Healer, heal thyself.

I'm pretty clear about my agenda, and have been for a long time. As the Hindus put it, "May all beings everywhere be happy and free." One specific application of that is helping to end patriarchy, the millennia-old system of oppression of women.

You certainly have a facility for objecting so much to every twig and branch so that you don't even glimpse the forest. And obviously, I can't make you see the it, so I won't try. But just so it's clear for others, I think patriarchy is also damaging to men and that they especially need education in coping with a post-patriarchal world. It was certainly a struggle for me to throw off a lot of that nonsense. Women need less help, especially these days, because a) a lot of that education has taken place starting with the suffragettes, and b) a lot of the post-patriarchal changes for them are ones of increasing opportunity, and so are easier to adapt to.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#989

Post by franciscop »

Filligree wrote: post #986
franciscop wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, that's why I was asking whether Reddit advice is similar somehow to mainstream advice. What would you consider mainstream advice then? Do you have any article that shows mainstream advice (for the USA)?

I don't live in the USA, and have never been exposed to its mainstream. Probably the best way to find out would be to go outside, talk to random people, and ask them where they get their news and/or advice?

When I go outside and talk to random people they tend to answer in Japanese, not American English (I live in Japan) :)

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#990

Post by rsanek »

jjav wrote: post #980
kortilla wrote: post #933

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Purchasing power for the average worker is flat[2]. In some sense, it's like the middle class has been working for fifty years without a raise, only now two people in the household need to work That “flat” wage is accounting for inflation according to your own link. So not only would a single earner be doing just as good today as back then, adding a second income means they are raking in twice the spending power as…

> Worst of all (from a financial perspective), they want both of their average kids to spend 4 years at an expensive university. Expensive only because it's been allowed to become expensive. Decades ago it was normal for a good university to be nearly free or at least quite affordably by the student working part time to pay their way. > dental care, better medical care People "want" health care. I mean of course, but…

> Decades ago it was normal for a good university to be nearly free or at least quite affordably by the student working part time to pay their way.

Here's a few graphs that show this more explicitly: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/gregschoofs/how-much-co...

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