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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#391

Post by 300bps »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #382
300bps wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else

I'm not sure that would be worse than the current system where the richer American is smarter, better looking, and more physically able

There are quite literally billions of people that are richer, smarter, better looking and/or more physically able than I am.

I'm glad for it. I would never want to bring anyone else down to meet me at my level on any metric.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#392

Post by reducesuffering »

Dig1t wrote: post #316

It's kind of funny how both sides of the political aisle have extremists who find ways to argue that being dummer is better. They mirror each other in so many ways and sometimes the two extremes kind of wrap back around to the other side and have the same goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

There were three factions in WW2 and the Cold War. It was about preventing the assault of extremists on both sides.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#393

Post by john_moscow »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #376

The worst thing about the CMF effort is that it would only deepen the disparities between rich and poor. Public education is often the only shot poor kids have to gain knowledge and skills that might propel them into STEM fields. Do we need to mail copies of Stand and Deliver to the entire California school board? Or am I the only one that recalls that movie... based on something that actually happened... in Californ…

Well, why do you think the elites are unanimously supporting the recent equity initiatives? Because in reality they penalize the potential contenders from the rank-and-file class, while the top ladder plays by their own playback.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#394

Post by rayiner »

drewwwwww wrote: post #384
jollybean wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no two people in the world with the same beliefs - nobody is suggesting that. There is however a very broad movement of people who believe that unequal outcomes are a manifestation of racism and so they act accordingly in their roles in government etc.. Many of these people are in the civil service and so this will influence their view. It would be 'insane' to ignore this movement, it's one of the most powe…

Quoted post unavailable.

I know progressives love to portray things as a dichotomy between “fascism” and “equity” but that leaves out the position that the majority of people in minority groups actually support—color blindness: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/25/most-americ...

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#395

Post by zozbot234 »

namelessoracle wrote: post #362
zozbot234 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't get a college degree without passing the College Algebra weedout course (let alone Calculus, which is required for the bulk of STEM courses), and you can only realistically pass College Algebra by getting a lot of rigorous math in K-12. Lowering the bar is doing every student a disservice, and the most vulnerable students will be the hardest hit.

You'd think that but there are work arounds. Yes pretty much every college requires "college algebra". But some schools have "college algebra for stem majors" vs "college algebra for non stem majors". Guess which one is easier, has lots of bonus credit and extra curricular stuff to earn extra credit. (You attended the college showing of "vagely related math movie?! Here's 10 points on your final!") And also grades on…

I do expect that such "workarounds" will always exist. I just don't think they're more realistic than just getting some good-enough math fundamentals in K-12, without mucking about with "data science" silliness. (Data literacy is of course appropriate to Science class, and the letter even mentions that.)

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#396

Post by fn-mote »

cortesoft wrote: post #48
daveslash wrote: post #10

Sorry for being out of the loop and asking a (possibly) dumb question: What is the stated reason that the CMF suggested these changes? Is it about budgets? Is it because some people might think these classes " aren't that important? ". The open letter seems to suggest that it's about closing gaps between privileged and less privileged - is that it? Honest question - I'm not trying to stir the pot.

I believe the gist of the argument is that when you split students into 'normal' and 'advanced' classes at a young age, the students who are not put into the advanced classes will believe they are just naturally not good at math and will give up on trying to get better because they will think they just "don't have a math brain". Here is a short blurb about the idea: > The framework would not forbid districts from acc…

> “When kids struggle, they immediately say ‘I don’t have a math brain,’” Boaler said. “That changes how the brain operates.”

This really jumped out at me.

I didn't read any context, but students CAN and SHOULD learn to struggle. Productively. Without thinking they are failing.

Imagine you thought everything should come easily? That's not my experience in the world.

The fact that students (are reported to) shut down when faced with difficulty is a failing of the educational system and something that should be worked against.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#397

Post by [deleted] »

zozbot234 wrote: post #353
namelessoracle wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you talk to these people though. They DO have bad beliefs. Let's not even talk about politics. Their goal is to get a kid a degree,(especially in groups that dont normally get degrees) and many of them believe just having the degree to get past the job resume hurdles is good and helping people. They ignore the fact that the degree is supposed to be a proof of "This person has X skillsets at minimum". It no longer…

You can't get a college degree without passing the College Algebra weedout course (let alone Calculus, which is required for the bulk of STEM courses), and you can only realistically pass College Algebra by getting a lot of rigorous math in K-12. Lowering the bar is doing every student a disservice, and the most vulnerable students will be the hardest hit.

[deleted]

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#398

Post by FredPret »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #58
FredPret wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we did probability with equal gusto as kids. I very occasionally multiply 7 and 6 in my head, but have to reason with probabilities and statistics all day long.

Agree. I think getting really good at addition subtraction and multiplication and then division/fractions is the way to go though. Have really strong math fundamentals and then learn algebra and then everything else is far easier to pick up.

Fair point. My first introduction to stats was at second year in uni though, far too late. By that time I had already done a lot of calculus, which while important, hasn’t exactly been critical in my daily life.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#399

Post by rayiner »

danans wrote: post #326
rayiner wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity. That’s true in virtually every country, because the school system is always the government’s primary point of contact with poor families. > It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children th…

> Countries like Japan and Singapore went from being desperately poor (at a level unimaginable even to an inner city American) to developed in a couple of generations in the 20th century Those countries did so by making absolutely massive infrastructure and human development investments in their poor populations during their industrializing phase, very similar to what the US did for its previously poor white populati…

> Those countries did so by making absolutely massive infrastructure and human development investments in their poor populations during their industrializing phase, very similar to what the US did for its previously poor white population after the 2nd world war.

Japan and Singapore aren’t Nordic social welfare states. They invested heavily in development but not particularly targeted at the poor.

> The people who face the greatest educational obstacles in the US today are disproportionately people who were also largely excluded from the huge post-WW2 investments and ensuing economic miracle, and have since faced the economic brunt of de-industrialization.

Only if you pretend that white people in Appalachia are the same group as white people in Massachusetts.

> They have far less crime and trauma to deal with, are not awash with weapons, and had very strong communal support systems. They were/are also quite authoritarian. Those are very different societies with very different circumstances.

That indicates that America’s problem is culture, not the availability of school psychologists.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#400

Post by hintymad »

troupe wrote: post #365
hintymad wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To digress a bit: good education will be a finite resource as we have finite number of good educators and good schools. I don't think it's possible for everyone to access good education, especially given that we have different definition for "good education". Saying everyone should go to MIT (or any scarce education resource) is like saying living in beach property is human right. Maybe so, but it'll be a different t…

Books are a finite resource, but not really limited for any practical purposes at least in the US. Used books are inexpensive, libraries are readily available, most things out of copyright are available online, etc. Education is following as similar course. Things like MITs open courseware, edX, etc. are making it increasingly easy to get the educational content from top teachers regardless of how limited these teach…

Education content is definitely ample now, including text books and references. we even have great communities to get answers to our questions. Unfortunately the bottleneck of education just switched to access to good teachers. A good teacher inspires students, identifies exactly why each student has difficulty understanding something, explains intuitions behind the most difficult concepts, designs highly tailored homework, leads engaging seminars, and keeps students in their discomfort zone. As in STEM field in general, lab staff, equipments, chemical agents, lab materials are generally scarce resources too.
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