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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#281

Post by klodolph »

ravi-delia wrote: post #266
klodolph wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that those beliefs are a workable explanation here. These proposals come from committees and groups of people, and it's just not realistic to write off the entire group of people behind these proposals as having some uniform set of beliefs like that, especially when they give other rationales for the proposals! The current school system makes decisions in middle school (8th grade and earlier) which dete…

I feel like in this case fundamental attribution error would go the other way, no? The explanation you offer is that there aren't circumstantial factors dominating the decision (the beliefs on this particular issue), but a fundamental flaw in how committees work. To be clear, I agree that this is an inevitable result of the decision-making structure, I've just only ever seen fundamental attribution error referring to…

That's an interesting way of looking at it.

I would never describe someone's beliefs as "circumstantial", and I would also never think of being on a committee as something "intrinsic".

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#282

Post by TimPC »

deanCommie wrote: post #112
prepend wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like such a bonehead solution to the problem. Of course if you’re doing poorly in math scores, you can make math easier in the hope to increase scores. It’s sad that the state is proposing these changes. I remember in school there were kids who argued “algebra is stupid, who needs it, why waste time” and there were one or two sympathetic teachers who would respond “well, I rarely have to use algebra to balan…

The person quoted ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Boaler ) is a "Nomellini-Olivier Professor of Mathematics Education at the Stanford Graduate School of Education" who "won the award for best PhD in education from the British Educational Research Association" I'm not saying I agree with the proposed California Framework. As a formerly gifted maths student, I hate it. But let's not dismiss the rigorous work of an a…

A Professor of Mathematics Education is a role that fits into a woke section of academia and generally publishes woke forms of advocate research. Many people can study mathematics education without studying much mathematics at all.

When the Mathematicians and Scientists are screaming that the policy is nonsense, I'm not convinced by an advocacy researcher saying it's rigorous work.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#283

Post by ceeplusplus »

temp8964 wrote: post #267
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

I don't think it has to be related to any point you put in here. I think when STEM people comment on math education, they easily forget K-12 math education is for all students, not future college STEM students. Lots of controversies in math education between STEM professors (especially mathematicians) and K-12 math educators/researchers are rooted in this. In the community of math and science education, we educators/…

That's fine, but it's the reason we have tracks. Future STEM workers can go into the advanced track and everyone else can go into their own track.

Germany separates people into vocational school and something closer to what we'd consider high school in the US by 9-10th grade. If you embrace the idea that some people are simply less suited for intensive math - whether it be because of work ethic, inherited IQ, lack of interest, etc. - and give them a path towards jobs that better fit their skillset, I think you'd see a lot less people drowning in college debt because they got a degree in sociology when they got weeded out of Calculus 101.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#284

Post by dionidium »

pfisherman wrote: post #262
FFRefresh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

I never understood why people try to make “blank slate” into a binary thing. Can people not have varying degrees of physical and neural plasticity? Perhaps some people are more like blank slates and can adapt more readily than others? Maybe plasticity changes with age?

There's almost no opponent of the blank slate theory who thinks societal factors never matter. There's only one side that takes a hard-line dogmatic view on this issue and it's the blank slatists.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#285

Post by jrumbut »

cwkoss wrote: post #128
kurthr wrote: post #27

From the original letter: While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college. The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning i…

Is calculus an important highschool goal? I feel like I may have benefited more if that time was spent on statistical literacy than calculus. I encounter stats very often in my adult life, calculus style problems are rare and I don't remember the formulas offhand, so end up just looking up what I need.

I think if the policy was "calculus isn't an important goal, we should actually teach stats" the reaction would be different.

I give the edge to calculus because it allows students to go right into physics and be able to graduate college with an engineering degree in four years (saving them time and money), but any challenging quantitative material would be good for their development.

The big picture goal is to show them there is this big world of problems that can be approached with specialized knowledge and get them familiar with what it takes to gain that knowledge.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#286

Post by temp8964 »

zmgsabst wrote: post #278
temp8964 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it has to be related to any point you put in here. I think when STEM people comment on math education, they easily forget K-12 math education is for all students, not future college STEM students. Lots of controversies in math education between STEM professors (especially mathematicians) and K-12 math educators/researchers are rooted in this. In the community of math and science education, we educators/…

That logic isn’t used in any other discipline: “We only cover bad art — we don’t focus on students who go on to be professional artists.” “We only focus on bad English — we don’t focus on students who go on to be professional writers.” “We only focus on bad history - we don’t focus on students who go on to study history or social science.” Each of those has an AP and IB track, competitions to find elites, etc — just…

Students do learn art in K-12, but they could be considered as "bad art" by professional artists...

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#287

Post by rayiner »

danans wrote: post #270
rayiner wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you think are the facts regarding the "lack of resources" in education and "the educational funding system?" Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education (adjusted for purchasing power) of any developed country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-ed... Or that 50% of total K-12 school funding comes from federal and state sources, which is directed mainl…

> Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity. It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need mor…

> Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity.

That’s true in virtually every country, because the school system is always the government’s primary point of contact with poor families.

> It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need more support staff, more psychologists, more free lunch programs, after-school care that their parents can never afford.

Agreed on school lunch. Large school districts already offer after school and summer programs.

Disagree on more staff and psychologists. That’s the kind of waste that detracts from money for instruction. Countries like Japan and Singapore went from being desperately poor (at a level unimaginable even to an inner city American) to developed in a couple of generations in the 20th century. I’m pretty sure they didn’t (and still don’t) have a bunch of school psychologists on staff.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#288

Post by bcrosby95 »

300bps wrote: post #202
ckemere wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Update - having re-read the first post about this, it seems that the issue of resources is exactly the problem. I think that opponents of the CMF would prefer to see More Resources put into careful, thorough elementary/middle school math so that middle schoolers would thrive in 8th grade Algebra. And in their view, the CMF simply lowers the bar, masking the need for more resources. I agree with that!

masking the need for more resources. Want to know the one resource that schools can never give students? Parental involvement. It also happens to be the #1 variable in success for students. If parents aren't checking their children's grades on a daily basis, asking what they're studying, staying in frequent communication with teachers and the school, there is nothing that is going to replace that. My oldest son was o…

You also have to be careful about "well performing" school districts for a similar reason. I live in one such district and most of the parents I know have a regular, dedicated tutor for each of their kids.

The teachers expect a lot because of this. Good luck if you can't afford such help.

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