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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

scottaaronson.blog

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are all the extra engineers going to come from? Unfortunately, maybe where they come from now? India, China, and other immigration.

The unstated irony is that there’s a large overlap in the anti-immigration and re-industrialization crowd. I think an interesting part of 20th century American industrial/scientific history is that many of the prominent figures were European immigrants (many Jewish) or children of immigrants. Maybe there is something exceptional about the environment itself. But the talented and privileged native citizens rarely aspi…

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#262
post #27

From the original letter: While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college. The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning i…

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

I never understood why people try to make “blank slate” into a binary thing.

Can people not have varying degrees of physical and neural plasticity? Perhaps some people are more like blank slates and can adapt more readily than others? Maybe plasticity changes with age?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#263
post #27

From the original letter: While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college. The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning i…

The perception of math by the public has led to a cognitive predisposition that math (especially calculus) is beyond the ordinary person. I wish pop culture would transform this.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

> Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability This is generally true. People can find extreme examples that “disprove” this but they’re generally wrong. Most things people do aren’t that hard and people have the ability to learn to do them — they either choose a different path, have fewer choices, or just don’t care. And yes, before you ask, this includes computer programming.

This is so obviously false that I'm always amazed there are people who actually believe this.

In _every_ activity I've ever participated in where I can observe many people's performance and progression - including powerlifting, bodybuilding, various ball sports, mathematics, chess, theoretical CS, software engineering, etc - it is transparently obvious that people's natural abilities vary dramatically.

Although it's not the most common scenario (training and experience do matter), I have seen many situations where someone with, say, 6 months' haphazard and lazy experience will absolutely crush the performance of someone with 3 years of serious and dedicated training.

Talent is real.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#265
post #183

Irrespective of specific educational curriculums, I'm curious what does HN think about Calculus? I absolutely loved learning Calculus in high school in Math and 1st and 2nd year of University. I consistently got 97+% on my grades. And I've never had to use it in my Computer Science degree or my 20 year Software Engineer career since. Am in a bubble because I don't spend much time in the Machine Learning domain?

I've never understood the cult of calculus. I think it comes from mistaking the importance of its discovery for the importance of teaching it. It was a huge unlock for science, but is in no way a huge unlock for most people's lives. On the other hand, I feel psychology and stats are the biggest missing pieces in K12 education. We need to build greater awareness of human needs and fallibilities, and awareness of how t…

As I recall from when this came up a few years ago, the "cult of calculus" was because in the post-war era 'the end-users of mathematics studies [were] mostly in the physical sciences and engineering; and they expected manipulative skill in calculus.' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math .

One way to see how curriculum has changed over the last 70 years is in Sheldon Glashow's autobiography. He graduated from the Bronx High School of Science in 1950. Quoting https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/1979/glashow/biogr... , "High-school mathematics then terminated with solid geometry."

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

I don't think that those beliefs are a workable explanation here. These proposals come from committees and groups of people, and it's just not realistic to write off the entire group of people behind these proposals as having some uniform set of beliefs like that, especially when they give other rationales for the proposals! The current school system makes decisions in middle school (8th grade and earlier) which dete…

I feel like in this case fundamental attribution error would go the other way, no? The explanation you offer is that there aren't circumstantial factors dominating the decision (the beliefs on this particular issue), but a fundamental flaw in how committees work. To be clear, I agree that this is an inevitable result of the decision-making structure, I've just only ever seen fundamental attribution error referring to mistakes in the other direction.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#267
post #27

From the original letter: While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college. The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning i…

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

I don't think it has to be related to any point you put in here. I think when STEM people comment on math education, they easily forget K-12 math education is for all students, not future college STEM students.

Lots of controversies in math education between STEM professors (especially mathematicians) and K-12 math educators/researchers are rooted in this. In the community of math and science education, we educators/researchers always focus on average students who will grow into future citizens, not STEM workers. This is really a different mindset to STEM professors.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#268
post #27

From the original letter: While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college. The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning i…

The intention was to dumb down mathematics. If you lower the bar sufficiently you can get everyone over it. Then we'll all be equal, which is the goal of this curriculum.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who took both a stats and newtonian physics course before taking a calc course, I wish I hadn't. It was a waste of time. They can't explain why you use the formulas they do, they have to just say "trust us, and be able to regurgitate it on the exam". For me, learning means developing an intuition, which means resolving/building new facts from other facts I have already accepted. Being handed seemingly rand…

You can develop an intuition divorced from meaningless formulas. It goes without saying this proposed class wouldn’t be based around memorizing unmotivated formulas.

But how would you "motivate" the formulas without knowing where they came from? Why is this the formula we use and not something else?

To go back to the car analogy, I know why I need an engine, you might even say I know how to use the engine, but if the engine dies or I want to use the engine for some other purpose, I'm not equipped to do anything.

I don't have "literacy" with engines, I have rote memorization of a series of steps. I don't have enough information to know why the steps are what they are, nor could I know under what conditions the steps should change or what they should change to.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#270
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of resources for public education, coupled with the every increasing level of competency that students are required to internalize over time drives many of the fights in education. I can understand how an electrical engineering professor like yourself is rightly concerned about your incoming students having less calculus proficiency. On the other hand, there many (possibly far more numerous than EE) educatio…

What exactly do you think are the facts regarding the "lack of resources" in education and "the educational funding system?" Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education (adjusted for purchasing power) of any developed country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/238733/expenditure-on-ed... Or that 50% of total K-12 school funding comes from federal and state sources, which is directed mainl…

> Are you aware that the U.S. spends among the most on primary education

Yes, and I'm also aware that in the US we expect the public school system to be a primary treatment center for the disadvantages and traumas associated with poverty and unequal opportunity.

It's more expensive (and harder) to educate hungry, ignored, and traumatized children than it is to educate children who are well take care of. They need more support staff, more psychologists, more free lunch programs, after-school care that their parents can never afford. And it's hard to attract good teachers to teach academics in those circumstances.

The major problems with primary education in the US are largely faced disadvantaged communities, not prosperous ones. If we decide to remove educational funding from disadvantaged communities, we have to be prepared to either put it into those communities in other ways, otherwise we'll face even greater problems in schools.

None of that is to say that there doesn't need to be more accountability in school systems - there is a lot that needs to be done to re-examine how education is delivered. But just looking at the situation by comparing $ spent on primary education between countries is oversimplifying things.

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