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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#81

Post by adamomada »

Miner49er wrote: post #52
daveslash wrote: post #10

Sorry for being out of the loop and asking a (possibly) dumb question: What is the stated reason that the CMF suggested these changes? Is it about budgets? Is it because some people might think these classes " aren't that important? ". The open letter seems to suggest that it's about closing gaps between privileged and less privileged - is that it? Honest question - I'm not trying to stir the pot.

From my understanding, they revisit this framework every 8 years. California is doing poorly in 8th grade math scores, so I think they want to make changes to improve that.

Goodhart's law In action?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#82

Post by civilized »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #13

Ultimately the solution is better STEM foundation at the very very early ages. Universal pre school would probably be very useful. Empirically [edit: n = 1 or 2], it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well. That would enable everyone to go into more advanced classes at the sa…

More and more earlier and earlier doesn't comport well with child development and can backfire by making students feel incompetent. We need better teachers, probably by paying more so more talented people join the profession.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#83

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

chadash wrote: post #63
frostburg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not require abstraction, I don't know if it is necessary but it is practical to teach them.

What's the point of teaching kids to memorize something that they can't apply? When I was a kid, schools taught multiplication tables in 2nd grade, when most kids are 7 years old. The difference in cognition between a 4 year old and 7 year old is insane. I'd be surprised if there were any countries where multiplication was formally taught to pre-K students as part of the standard curriculum, but i'd love to be proven…

I don't know if there are countries. I believe that if there actually was a unified accelerated math framework that was really emphasized starting age 4/5 then kids would be absolutely fantastic at math.

> What's the point ... ?

Paraphrasing what I said a comment above, you drill addition and subtraction until everyone is good at it, then you drill multiplication, then you do basic division, then you start introducing basic one variable algebra with "move plus to the other side to get minus" etc. The application is using algebra for word problems; formalism can come later.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#85

Post by ckemere »

ckemere wrote: post #46

Text from the CMF: > "Since achieving a solid foundation in mathematics is more important for long-term success than rushing through courses with a superficial understanding, it would be desirable to consider how students who do not accelerate in eighth grade can reach higher level courses, potentially including Calculus, by twelfth grade. One possibility could involve reducing the repetition of content in high schoo…

Update - having re-read the first post about this, it seems that the issue of resources is exactly the problem. I think that opponents of the CMF would prefer to see More Resources put into careful, thorough elementary/middle school math so that middle schoolers would thrive in 8th grade Algebra. And in their view, the CMF simply lowers the bar, masking the need for more resources.

I agree with that!

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#86

Post by n4r9 »

spicymaki wrote: post #75

The tension here is that educational achievement is a proxy measurement for IQ and in capitalist societies IQ is directly correlated with income. The cultural ideal here in the US is that hard work, effort, and grit is what is necessary for success. It is supposed to be purely egalitarian; you get what you give. However whether you are born with a high IQ is purely random, and even worse IQ is heritable. This is crea…

> whether you are born with a high IQ is purely random, and even worse IQ is heritable

This sounds contradictory to me.

Moreover, how does IQ differ in this respect from "capacity and willingness to do hard work"?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#87

Post by prepend »

Miner49er wrote: post #52
daveslash wrote: post #10

Sorry for being out of the loop and asking a (possibly) dumb question: What is the stated reason that the CMF suggested these changes? Is it about budgets? Is it because some people might think these classes " aren't that important? ". The open letter seems to suggest that it's about closing gaps between privileged and less privileged - is that it? Honest question - I'm not trying to stir the pot.

From my understanding, they revisit this framework every 8 years. California is doing poorly in 8th grade math scores, so I think they want to make changes to improve that.

It seems like such a bonehead solution to the problem. Of course if you’re doing poorly in math scores, you can make math easier in the hope to increase scores.

It’s sad that the state is proposing these changes. I remember in school there were kids who argued “algebra is stupid, who needs it, why waste time” and there were one or two sympathetic teachers who would respond “well, I rarely have to use algebra to balance my checkbook” or something silly. It seems like those kids have grown up, gained power, and are literally pushing the argument that this math isn’t important.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#88

Post by heymijo »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #40
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #13

Ultimately the solution is better STEM foundation at the very very early ages. Universal pre school would probably be very useful. Empirically [edit: n = 1 or 2], it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well. That would enable everyone to go into more advanced classes at the sa…

>"drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables" I get the sense that such rote methods are no longer encouraged and a lot of the "new math" in Common Core is aimed at approximation and reckoning so that students won't rely on memorization.

> Empirically, it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well.

This aspect of the Common Core was about recognizing deficits in conceptual understanding resulting from rote methods of drilling arithmetic.

The empirical evidence is the opposite of OP's assertion, but the end point of giving students a better intuitive foundation for higher level math is indeed the goal!

Signed,

An elementary school math teacher who has studied the 60 years of math reform in America, internationally, and worked very hard to ensure all students have a foundation to succeed in higher level mathematics

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#89

Post by RangerScience »

frostburg wrote: post #57
BitwiseFool wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables" I get the sense that such rote methods are no longer encouraged and a lot of the "new math" in Common Core is aimed at approximation and reckoning so that students won't rely on memorization.

If you want to teach people methods to solve equations, limits, integrals etc. speed with basic algebraic operations is necessary. Facility with those methods is then necessary to be able to adequately follow important proofs and gain understanding of more advanced concepts. I don't know how you would teach people important results in their fields (physics, computer science etc., I'm not talking about actual mathemat…

TL;DR: algebra != arithmetic AKA real math doesn't use numbers

I'm only good at _arithmetic_ because of making Warhammer 40k armies (true story bro).

I'm good at _algebra_ because I was taught well, on top of a knack.

Speed with basic algebraic operations was very helpful in many places but speed with arithmetic operations has only been helpful in board games.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with your point about algebra, but I think a lot of people such as myself would disagree that pre-K memorization of arithmetic helps with algebra later.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#90

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

chadash wrote: post #77
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In context I meant get really good at addition/subtraction starting pre K and then multiplication once +/- is mastered. Though empirically, I don't know about age 4 but kindergarten is definitely not too young for learning up to 12*12. And once you figure out multiplication and eventually mental division, it's not too big of a leap to have one variable algebra with "move a plus to the other side to become minus" etc.…

Out of curiosity, is that a hunch or are you aware of any schools teaching multiplication tables even in Kindergarten? This used to be done in second grade when I was a kid.

You're right, it's a hunch (n=1.5±0.5).
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