Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

scottaaronson.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 657 posts

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#31

Post by throwaway894345 »

jimbob45 wrote: post #11
adamsmith143 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense even as a well meaning. "Some kids are going to fail so we need to prevent other kids from excelling." Obvious BS from California

Okay but what if American children were subjected to the standards of Chinese schools? You'd see 70% failure rates overnight at every school in the nation. Surely, in that case, we'd see policies like these pushed even by white people. Likewise, the minority parents and schools simply see upper-class white schools in this country as we do the Chinese schools. I'm not saying that this is the best solution to the probl…

We're not talking about abruptly changing standards, we're talking about holding kids to existing standards for which our society is already calibrated. I don't think your analogy applies (also, are Chinese schools really so much more rigorous than American schools, or is this assumed based on performance of Chinese immigrants?).

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#32

Post by bigcat123 »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #25
School-Cotton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

It's possible this is a good thing. Though it's also possible sorting too early determines someone's life path before they are mature to understand their talents and abilities. So I don't think early sorting is superior to the American model because at least the American model can uplift late bloomers.

No post body was provided.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#33

Post by morelisp »

sefrost wrote: post #12
School-Cotton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

Which countries do that and which countries don't?

In Germany you can be sorted into a Hauptschule around age 10. At this point you will definitely not get a university education via any usual path. Increasingly even "the trades" are closed off to graduates and people expect a Realschule (HS/GED equivalent) degree for those.

I don't think university is appropriate for everyone and I dearly wish skilled trades had a higher position in society, and generally don't believe in the idea of "unskilled labor". But the German system is ultimately as cruel as the American one.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#34

Post by poisonarena »

lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

What happened in California over the last 50 years to make math scores plummet ?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#35

Post by logicalmonster »

lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

> How we got to this point is perhaps a lot more complicated and politically fraught, but it has to be dealt with.

How many folks are really willing to do that? The problem is that actually discussing the perceived root causes of this issue will get you shunned out of polite society.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#38

Post by chadash »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #13

Ultimately the solution is better STEM foundation at the very very early ages. Universal pre school would probably be very useful. Empirically [edit: n = 1 or 2], it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well. That would enable everyone to go into more advanced classes at the sa…

Pre-K (4 year olds) seems a bit young for teaching multiplication tables.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#39

Post by robotresearcher »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #19
dc-programmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think America is going to have to take a hard look at its math education if it’s serious about re-industrializing. Where are all the extra engineers going to come from? I think you are touching on theory I have that Americans are becoming increasingly resentful that technical skills are becoming more necessary for middle class living. This is a huge driver of the pervading sense of precariousness. For some reason t…

> Where are all the extra engineers going to come from? Unfortunately, maybe where they come from now? India, China, and other immigration.

Unfortunately?

Well-trained people showing up by themselves is a huge advantage.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#40

Post by BitwiseFool »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #13

Ultimately the solution is better STEM foundation at the very very early ages. Universal pre school would probably be very useful. Empirically [edit: n = 1 or 2], it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well. That would enable everyone to go into more advanced classes at the sa…

>"drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables"

I get the sense that such rote methods are no longer encouraged and a lot of the "new math" in Common Core is aimed at approximation and reckoning so that students won't rely on memorization.

Post reply on HN