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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#21

Post by brightball »

School-Cotton wrote: post #4
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

The approach makes sense. How are claims of bias within the process handled? That’s the only thing I can imagine from a similar system here.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#22

Post by brummm »

sefrost wrote: post #12
School-Cotton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

Which countries do that and which countries don't?

Germany splits students into different schools starting 5th grade and it's absolutely great.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#23

Post by dc-programmer »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #19
dc-programmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think America is going to have to take a hard look at its math education if it’s serious about re-industrializing. Where are all the extra engineers going to come from? I think you are touching on theory I have that Americans are becoming increasingly resentful that technical skills are becoming more necessary for middle class living. This is a huge driver of the pervading sense of precariousness. For some reason t…

> Where are all the extra engineers going to come from? Unfortunately, maybe where they come from now? India, China, and other immigration.

The unstated irony is that there’s a large overlap in the anti-immigration and re-industrialization crowd.

I think an interesting part of 20th century American industrial/scientific history is that many of the prominent figures were European immigrants (many Jewish) or children of immigrants.

Maybe there is something exceptional about the environment itself. But the talented and privileged native citizens rarely aspire to be an innovator; they dream of being a leader or strategic thinker or mover of capital.

That’s why I think hard math is so marginalized even in elite circles (“I’ve never been good at math”). Technical work is essentially blue collar to the upper middle class. Many of my peers are in this group, and the only time they were ever interested in math or programming, was due to its possibility as a conduit to a more prestigious position.

This attitude is directly ingrained in undergrad institutions. They focus on general knowledge to serve as a justification to skip over front line work to become a leader (military officer, factory manager, investment banker).

There are excellent American technicians no doubt but most of them don’t fit the typical WASP mold or are predisposed to obsessing over systemic topics (which describes myself, being ADHD, although I can only strive to be excellent).

And the upper class? They have never aspired to much of anything really other than hedonism and protecting their position of status. At least in other countries, the upper class ideal is a renaissance man.

Edit: some of these assertions are sweeping and maybe a little mean. But I do think the thesis is directionally correct. America will need to change the culture around education to succeed in the 21st century. Immigration has and will continue to be a boon; but we have to accept the possibility that America could become a less desirable immigration target

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#24

Post by frostburg »

brightball wrote: post #21
School-Cotton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

The approach makes sense. How are claims of bias within the process handled? That’s the only thing I can imagine from a similar system here.

At least here you can just go to the school that you want. People that don't like math or the idea of studying dead languages do not pick the lyceums.

Obviously indirect social stratification is still at work in the process.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#25

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

School-Cotton wrote: post #4
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

It's possible this is a good thing. Though it's also possible sorting too early determines someone's life path before they are mature to understand their talents and abilities. So I don't think early sorting is superior to the American model because at least the American model can uplift late bloomers.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#27

Post by kurthr »

From the original letter:

  While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college.  The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning in grade eight (or sooner) because of mistaken beliefs that Calculus is an important high school goal.'
The updated CMF looks better, but I just don't see how an educator who knows math or how to teach math could come to such a conclusion (that Calculus should not be a goal). If it is well-intentioned, what was the intention... to dumb down math in high school? Perhaps we need to educate those who are coming up with the math frameworks in math and science, or to get people who care on the California Department of Education?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#28

Post by FredPret »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #13

Ultimately the solution is better STEM foundation at the very very early ages. Universal pre school would probably be very useful. Empirically [edit: n = 1 or 2], it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well. That would enable everyone to go into more advanced classes at the sa…

I wish we did probability with equal gusto as kids. I very occasionally multiply 7 and 6 in my head, but have to reason with probabilities and statistics all day long.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#29

Post by frostburg »

acchow wrote: post #18
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

> the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Why is this a rational fear? It seems shocking to me that students can't perform at the same prior standards given their parents are more educated than the prior generation's parents.

Are the teachers as good?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#30

Post by TulliusCicero »

brummm wrote: post #22
sefrost wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which countries do that and which countries don't?

Germany splits students into different schools starting 5th grade and it's absolutely great.

Deciding the future of your life in 4th grade (when students are evaluated in Bavaria, at least) is maybe not great. Was living in Munich for five years and I'm glad we left before our son got sorted.

There's also a strong racial/class component to who gets into Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium, surprise surprise.

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