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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#11

Post by jimbob45 »

adamsmith143 wrote: post #7
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

This makes no sense even as a well meaning. "Some kids are going to fail so we need to prevent other kids from excelling." Obvious BS from California

Okay but what if American children were subjected to the standards of Chinese schools? You'd see 70% failure rates overnight at every school in the nation. Surely, in that case, we'd see policies like these pushed even by white people.

Likewise, the minority parents and schools simply see upper-class white schools in this country as we do the Chinese schools. I'm not saying that this is the best solution to the problem but I can at least understand where these parents are coming from.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#12

Post by sefrost »

School-Cotton wrote: post #4
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

Which countries do that and which countries don't?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#13

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

Ultimately the solution is better STEM foundation at the very very early ages. Universal pre school would probably be very useful. Empirically [edit: n = 1 or 2], it seems that drilling basic arithmetic and then multiplication tables early in pre K and earlier elementary will give students a better intuitive math foundation to do algebra very well. That would enable everyone to go into more advanced classes at the same time (earlier) rather than these policies which want everyone to go in at the same time (later).

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#14

Post by snowwrestler »

lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

Is the curriculum being watered down? My reading on this the last time it came up on HN is that the sequencing of math topics is being changed, which results in classes not having the familiar names like Algebra 2, Geometry, AB Calculus, etc. That doesn’t mean the concepts will not be covered by the end.

I remember the huge blowups over “Common Core” years ago, which included new ways of teaching math concepts. I got to see some of it in action during COVID as I sat in on elementary Zoom school with my kid. I have to say I was impressed; they used techniques I did not recognize, but they seemed to work well.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#15

Post by dc-programmer »

lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

I think America is going to have to take a hard look at its math education if it’s serious about re-industrializing. Where are all the extra engineers going to come from?

I think you are touching on theory I have that Americans are becoming increasingly resentful that technical skills are becoming more necessary for middle class living. This is a huge driver of the pervading sense of precariousness. For some reason there’s a huge math phobia in this country

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#16

Post by frostburg »

School-Cotton wrote: post #4
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

I'm not sure it's merely that. Most vocational track high schools types (except the hotel / restaurant ones that are well designed) here in Italy are honestly bad, not really helping students reach their full potential, but the content of the courses isn't on-its-face farcical like that "data science" course.

There are clearly decision makers detached from reality involved here.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#17

Post by usrn »

sefrost wrote: post #12
School-Cotton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

Which countries do that and which countries don't?

Germany famously does. Children are given a test and depending on the score they go to Gymnasium (in perpetration for university) or one of two other options which trains them for either trades or labor.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#18

Post by acchow »

lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

> the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor.

Why is this a rational fear? It seems shocking to me that students can't perform at the same prior standards given their parents are more educated than the prior generation's parents.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#19

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

dc-programmer wrote: post #15
lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

I think America is going to have to take a hard look at its math education if it’s serious about re-industrializing. Where are all the extra engineers going to come from? I think you are touching on theory I have that Americans are becoming increasingly resentful that technical skills are becoming more necessary for middle class living. This is a huge driver of the pervading sense of precariousness. For some reason t…

> Where are all the extra engineers going to come from?

Unfortunately, maybe where they come from now? India, China, and other immigration.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#20

Post by cortesoft »

lr4444lr wrote: post #3

Efforts like this are well meaning, but only treat symptoms. The major impetus for watered down curricula is the very rational fear that large swaths of the student population will fail if expected to perform at the prior standards of rigor. Schools are not prepared to hold back massive numbers of kids, drop out proclivity for students held back rises, and teachers will be poorly evaluated by virtue of their students…

Maybe I am missing something, but how would allowing some kids to take more advanced math cause other kids to fail? You could allow kids to graduate without taking the advanced math, but still let kids who want to/are ready take the more advanced classes.
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