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The Hare programming language

harelang.org

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Re: The Hare programming language

#241

Post by thrtythreeforty »

duped wrote: post #236
packetlost wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Linux is by far the largest majority of server deployments, and you are not doing yourself any favors by not developing on the same platform as your deploy target.

I agree 100%, but balanced against the fact that many devs need laptops from their employer, and it's way easier to get a good macbook that just works good enough for development than a linux machine. Especially when you don't control ordering, or need to inherit machines. Dev on Mac and deploy on Linux is a popular setup for a reason. Until there's a macbook pro for linux that you can just buy*, it's going to contin…

The "Macbook Pro for Linux" may turn out to be the Macbook Pro: https://asahilinux.org/

(at least, once they add drivers for the GPU!)

Re: The Hare programming language

#242

Post by ddevault »

conaclos wrote: post #202
xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #26

Not supporting Windows and macOS will likely hurt the adoption of the language. Anyway, is it possible to target bare-metal with Hare? Is it possible to use it without the standard library?

I am wondering: if hare compile for some UNIX systems, then it should be "easy" to port this to MacOS.

I agree that a macOS port should be relatively straightforward.

Re: The Hare programming language

#243

Post by packetlost »

duped wrote: post #236
packetlost wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Linux is by far the largest majority of server deployments, and you are not doing yourself any favors by not developing on the same platform as your deploy target.

I agree 100%, but balanced against the fact that many devs need laptops from their employer, and it's way easier to get a good macbook that just works good enough for development than a linux machine. Especially when you don't control ordering, or need to inherit machines. Dev on Mac and deploy on Linux is a popular setup for a reason. Until there's a macbook pro for linux that you can just buy*, it's going to contin…

If you're developing on a macbook but targeting Linux, you should probably be using VMs

Re: The Hare programming language

#244

Post by metaltyphoon »

packetlost wrote: post #232
metaltyphoon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not among our target audience it won't. Yes it will. I have no interest in using Linux as desktop but I do use it for deployments. If there is one trait of major PL is the adoption of the big 3 OSes. This is Hare’s biggest flaw right now.

Hard disagree. Linux is by far the largest majority of server deployments, and you are not doing yourself any favors by not developing on the same platform as your deploy target.

I never said it wasn't the biggest deployment target. I also think it's shortsighted to do this.

> you are not doing yourself any favors by not developing on the same platform as your deploy target

Why would I give up all the tooling I already have, such as an VS, to "do development on Linux"? Have you tried doing development from Visual Studio, VSCode on windows where it targets WSL? It's seamless and I don't really have to care much about Linux as a Desktop.

Re: The Hare programming language

#245

Post by woodruffw »

throwawaymaths wrote: post #162
kaba0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A simpler language makes this more possible This is false. Rust’s borrow checker is nothing else but an included proof assistant for rust code. The reason it can catch so many memory issues and data races is specifically due to a more restricted language. Also, sel4 is a relatively tiny program which was written for an unusually long time by domain experts. Formal verification simply doesn’t scale to global propert…

> Formal verification simply doesn’t scale to global properties This is an assertion you are making with absolutely no evidence, and also totally self-contradictory with your statement "Rust’s borrow checker is nothing else but an included proof assistant for rust code". While we're at it, also Ada does this, which has long been used for large scale mission critical applications where formal assurances are necessary…

These claims aren’t contradictory when you understand the domain in question: formal verification of C abstract semantics doesn’t scale particularly well. Rust (and Ada) both have restricted memory semantics (particularly around aliasing) that effectively eliminate some of the hardest problems in whole-program static analysis.

Re: The Hare programming language

#247

Post by duped »

thrtythreeforty wrote: post #241
duped wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree 100%, but balanced against the fact that many devs need laptops from their employer, and it's way easier to get a good macbook that just works good enough for development than a linux machine. Especially when you don't control ordering, or need to inherit machines. Dev on Mac and deploy on Linux is a popular setup for a reason. Until there's a macbook pro for linux that you can just buy*, it's going to contin…

The "Macbook Pro for Linux" may turn out to be the Macbook Pro: https://asahilinux.org/ (at least, once they add drivers for the GPU!)

...until Apple releases the next generation that breaks it. It's a bit sisyphean.

Re: The Hare programming language

#248

Post by packetlost »

metaltyphoon wrote: post #244
packetlost wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Linux is by far the largest majority of server deployments, and you are not doing yourself any favors by not developing on the same platform as your deploy target.

I never said it wasn't the biggest deployment target. I also think it's shortsighted to do this. > you are not doing yourself any favors by not developing on the same platform as your deploy target Why would I give up all the tooling I already have, such as an VS, to "do development on Linux"? Have you tried doing development from Visual Studio, VSCode on windows where it targets WSL? It's seamless and I don't really…

You can do that exact setup just fine with Hare only being able to compile for Linux (or FreeBSD). Providing a Linux runtime environment to run code that targets Linux is WSLs whole purpose.

Re: The Hare programming language

#249

Post by throw10920 »

skybrian wrote: post #215
throw10920 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely selfish answer - by refusing to spend a few hours writing a front-page summary of your language, you're valuing the time of your m developers (where m is small) over that of the n developers who might want to evaluate the language (where n is large). A language made by people who consciously make that tradeoff is almost certainly not worth even trying to learn. At least, if you're looking for a l…

This is a gift to the world, so they aren't selfish. You are demanding, and you have no right to demand anything of random strangers on the Internet. Nobody is required to market their work as you demand, or even try very hard to seek new users. Often, slow growth is better. Maybe someone not on the team will write a decent review of the language, and we will find out more. Hopefully that person will read the documen…

> You are demanding, and you have no right to demand anything of random strangers on the Internet.

In which case, the developers of this language are demanding that I spend my valuable time trying to read through their documentation to figure out if this language is good for me, in which case I reply: my time is also a gift and you have no right to demand that of me - I'm going to go and look at another language, and suggest that friends and fellow developers do the same.

Re: The Hare programming language

#250

Post by lispm »

cestith wrote: post #159
FrozenVoid wrote: post #95

Lack of macros in recent systems languages like Zig/Hare/etc seems to be a design flaw, a handicap marketed as safety feature or bargain for clarity. If a language can't replace C macros, it cannot replace C.

C doesn't exactly have macros. That's a text substitution done by the preprocessor in its own limited, special-purpose language. True hygienic macros of something like Common Lisp are a different beast. If all you want are textual substitutions, you can use the C preprocessor in front of any language.

Common Lisp does have macros, but not hygienic macros.
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