Principles of Engineering Management • Hacker News Board

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#41

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:45 PM UTC

prmph wrote: post #13

AlwaysRock wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. I've worked for a lot of bad managers and 2 good ones. 1 of the good ones wasnt a great human but an incredible teacher. The other was an okay teacher but an incredible human. The later I'm still in contact with and we've stayed in touch for 5 plus years. A lot of what I'm looking for in a boss is just someone who kind and understanding. It's shocking how low that is on most managers agendas.

Well, as an engineering team lead for years, and recently founder of a small gig, increasingly I've been shocked at how many people (employees, contractors, prospective business partners or co-founders) just want to take the easy way out, instead of putting in honest, conscientious, reflective work and effort, or are just plain incompetent at what they claim to be good at. Every once on a while you come across someon…

[deleted]

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#42

Post by havkom » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

havkom wrote: post #36

As an engineering manager myself I concur with all the points. Some of them are difficult though, for example: “optimize the dual objectives of delivering value to the organization and giving individuals problems that build their skillset, impact, satisfaction, …” and “ Managers with excellent execution skills and deep domain knowledge must resist the urge to present solutions to their reports.” To what extent should…

My approach so far is to be very very allowing —- until any failure becomes apparent and it can “naturally be discussed” (or it causes problems with colleagues in the group).

This can be quite stressful though — I do not think the people reporting to me understands how much energy is spent as a manager negotiating with others in order to give the team and team members the most space/maneuverability that is possible.

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#43

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #21

I consumed a lot of blog posts like this before becoming a manager. It feels satisfying to read vague principles like this: > Facilitate wellbeing > Personal safety, dignity, and wellbeing of every team member are paramount. Team success is only success if team members feel good about it. But then you become an actual manager and realize that these are largely just feel-good aphorisms that don't really help navigate…

[deleted]

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#44

Post by havkom » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #39

havkom wrote: post #36

As an engineering manager myself I concur with all the points. Some of them are difficult though, for example: “optimize the dual objectives of delivering value to the organization and giving individuals problems that build their skillset, impact, satisfaction, …” and “ Managers with excellent execution skills and deep domain knowledge must resist the urge to present solutions to their reports.” To what extent should…

> To what extent should one allow suboptimal solutions 100% of the time. After all you can't count yourself being there to 'save the day' every single time, so whats the point of interfering here and there randomly.

I agree (with some reservations, see my other reply to my post)

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#45

Post by tschellenbach » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

Lot of misconceptions here that cause teams to underperform.

1. Managing comes first. (Nope, as a manager your are primarily responsible for ensuring a good outcome. As your title goes from manager, senior, higher to VP etc this becomes more important. Lower job titles you get paid to "do the work", higher titles are about "achieve outcome".) In the current market you'll often run into team members that don't perform. I see this so often where leads think that they have to "manage" and not do the work and the result is them and their team failing 2. Facilitate wellbeing. That's nice. But your primary responsibility is to A. Achieve the goal. B. hold people accountable to an acceptable level of performance

Give credit, take blame: That's a good one.

This post is just full of vague language that doesn't hold anyone accountable. Sucks to be an IC on that team, thinking everything is going well and eventually end up having whole teams being fired since your manager didn't set the right pace.

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#46

Post by nealabq » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

deeptote wrote: post #14

This is typical, MBA armchair psychology. Here's the real Principals of Engineering Management, according to pretty much every middle manager, director, and vp I've ever worked with: 1. Be caviling and pedantic, so you can reinforce your position of petty power. 2. Contribute exactly zero code, infrastructure, etc. Basically, anything that actually provides value to the engineers or the customers, you don't touch. 3.…

I think it's helpful to consider these points, and try not to be put off by the bitter tone.

As an employee you have to consider the workplace culture, and your manager's attitude towards his/her "resources" (employees). This is a list of danger signs. You want to be watch for dysfunctional behaviors like this creeping into your work environment, and either combat them if you can, or find a new position. Or, you can accommodate/enable and try to insulate yourself, which is OK in the short-term, as you work towards a longer-term solution.

The culture of the organization and the management chain above you greatly affects your satisfaction and mental well-being. I assure you that, although no workplace is perfect, a few are pretty darn good. And sometimes it's possible to exert influence. Try not to sink too far into cynicism because there is a lot of incompetence and selfish self-interest out there. Use your skills of observation and writing to make things better, or find a place where that's possible.

Sorry if this is preachy.

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#47

Post by wnolens » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #17

deeptote wrote: post #14

This is typical, MBA armchair psychology. Here's the real Principals of Engineering Management, according to pretty much every middle manager, director, and vp I've ever worked with: 1. Be caviling and pedantic, so you can reinforce your position of petty power. 2. Contribute exactly zero code, infrastructure, etc. Basically, anything that actually provides value to the engineers or the customers, you don't touch. 3.…

> Put engineers on-call instead of hiring support staff Note that in some jurisdictions (including the USA) this is problematic from a labor law perspective.

I really wish. But it is the standard. 90% of jobs I see involve building some online service. On call is as part of the job as writing code is.

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#48

Post by heisenbit » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #3

> Optimize work distribution > Managers have a portfolio of work that the business needs and people with work preferences. Optimize the dual objectives of delivering value to the organization and giving individuals problems that build their skillset, impact, satisfaction, and/or advancement. Performance is contextual; set people up to shine. I find this so important. A good manager has a good mental map of the busine…

The key job of a manager is to say no. It is not to optimize the work distribution but to control the scope of the work that is done. A critical distinction between manager and leader is the former has more focus managing shape of the playing field and the rules while the latter is more concerned about pushing towards results.

Last but not least management is about gaining, using and maintaining power. Without it saying no is not possible.

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#49

Post by lostcolony » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

wnolens wrote: post #47

dboreham wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put engineers on-call instead of hiring support staff Note that in some jurisdictions (including the USA) this is problematic from a labor law perspective.

I really wish. But it is the standard. 90% of jobs I see involve building some online service. On call is as part of the job as writing code is.

Everywhere I've worked has had on call rotations. Literally everywhere. Nowhere have devs been the first line of support (i.e., not "instead of" per the parent post, but "as well as"), but they've been in the mix.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to work somewhere that didn't. I have a huge problem with the idea of "my team wrote the code, and now isn't responsible for it". I intentionally optimize against "avoid 2 AM pages", and that ensures I push for enough testing and such to avoid them. If it was "someone else's problem", the only pressure I'd be under is to deliver ASAP, and that's unhealthy.

Re: Principles of Engineering Management

#50

Post by malfist » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

tschellenbach wrote: post #45

Lot of misconceptions here that cause teams to underperform. 1. Managing comes first. (Nope, as a manager your are primarily responsible for ensuring a good outcome. As your title goes from manager, senior, higher to VP etc this becomes more important. Lower job titles you get paid to "do the work", higher titles are about "achieve outcome".) In the current market you'll often run into team members that don't perform…

If you supplant your team and do the work yourself, you're not helping the team perform. Nobody is learning lessons and everyone, including yourself will just be more stressed and less satisfied with the job.

If you can't trust your team to do the work, then you shouldn't be managing those people. Management is about being a force multiplier, and not the force.