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BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

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Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#51
This makes so much sense. As I look back on the last 20 years of my career the things that set one place above another is the team and relationships.

I spend most of my time at a new job trying to recruit my former colleagues over. Team is everything. Once you have a group of people who work well together, the problem doesn't matter.

I saw someone saying they'd fight over tabs/spaces - nope. That's what two strangers do. A team has already settled on spaces.

If there are any employers reading my comment, hit me up if you want a solid team.

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#52

As a former hiring manager, I am a little puzzled what the deal is for employers . New grad positions are usually the easiest to fill, by far - much easier than any software engineering position where you’re hiring for some former experience. Also, new grads are almost always put on a team with more experienced engineers - one new grad at a time. This is so they get mentorship, onboarding and taking team dynamics int…

Indeed, that is one of the primary concerns on the employer side we've heard. It is easier to hire new grads for sure. Our solution to that is to offer highly desirable engineers. Our founding group is a set of high school friends, currently all juniors at Caltech, CMU, and MIT. In our first batch, we have numerous groups with high Putnam scores, high ranking competitive programmers, and 2+ FAANG internships. There w…

> Our founding group is a set of high school friends, currently all juniors at Caltech, CMU, and MIT. In our first batch, we have numerous groups with high Putnam scores, high ranking competitive programmers, and 2+ FAANG internships.

That's cool, but I think your inexperience might be blinding you about what actually makes a good engineering team. The actual hard part of software engineering is almost entirely disjoint from competitive programming or math competitions. When I hear a sentence like this I read "potential, but needs mentorship." It is hard for me to imagine this making me more likely to want to hire a blob of new grad engineers onto the same team.

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#53
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, that is one of the primary concerns on the employer side we've heard. It is easier to hire new grads for sure. Our solution to that is to offer highly desirable engineers. Our founding group is a set of high school friends, currently all juniors at Caltech, CMU, and MIT. In our first batch, we have numerous groups with high Putnam scores, high ranking competitive programmers, and 2+ FAANG internships. There w…

I think its a cool idea, but unless this is aimed at large tech companies (which maybe it is, I can't tell), I can't see the value here. I know you are from highly sought after school but to be honest the working industry of software engineering is very little like your college experience. You are not going to be hired as new grads to be writing proofs using turing machines. You are going to be thrown into the grinde…

It is even worse when aimed at large tech companies. These companies don't experience FOMO when they see a resume of a CMU grad. They get mountains of those a year. And further, large tech companies are going to be less likely to be able to adjust their hiring processes to substitute some external process.

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#54
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true that if you can say “you can hire from {top N colleges like MIT}” then this would be attractive. Trouble is, this won’t scale beyond the top 10: the ones which get far more recruiter reachouts than students. The other thing that could be a sell is retention. Retaining new grads beyond a year or two is notoriously difficult. If you’d have data or proof that this approach significantly increases retention and…

> Retaining new grads beyond a year or two is notoriously difficult. surely it's not that difficult: the value to an employer of a, er, "lightly-used second hand" grad with +1-2 years of real world engineering experience is dramatically higher than that of a completely green new grad. if an employer takes the initiative to award market-rate anchored raises commensurate with the value a junior engineer with 1-2 years…

Retaining new grads is largely a function of companies being unwilling to recognize that when adjusted for experience salaries often increase 50% a year for new grads. HR departments often think 5% is a generous raise and the gap created over two years is staggering. Even if you get a promotion package with a 50% raise you end up getting something over a 25% raise for leaving (in terms of your newer higher salary).

It’s kind of shocking that we say retention is so hard it’s close to impossible when we don’t acknowledge our own processes lead to a dramatic salary shortfall. I think if we paid new engineers accurately in the first five years of their career the number leaving for new jobs would dramatically decline.

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#55

Why did you select these institutions in particular? Carnegie Mellon University University of California, Berkeley Massachusetts Institute of Technology Cornell University Princeton University Stanford University California Institute of Technology Harvard University Yale University Dartmouth College Brown University Duke University …and which ones will be added soon?

Founders are CMU students; presumably the rest of the schools on the list are various name-brand private schools (plus Berkeley). Texas (and Illinois, Michigan, etc.) are notably missing from this first round list; that's the founders' loss.

Yeah it is a weird list. Dartmouth, Brown, and Duke? Good programs, but definitely below a number of public schools (Washington, Michigan, UW-Madison, UT-Austin, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UIUC, and probably others that aren't coming to mind right away).

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, that is one of the primary concerns on the employer side we've heard. It is easier to hire new grads for sure. Our solution to that is to offer highly desirable engineers. Our founding group is a set of high school friends, currently all juniors at Caltech, CMU, and MIT. In our first batch, we have numerous groups with high Putnam scores, high ranking competitive programmers, and 2+ FAANG internships. There w…

It’s true that if you can say “you can hire from {top N colleges like MIT}” then this would be attractive. Trouble is, this won’t scale beyond the top 10: the ones which get far more recruiter reachouts than students. The other thing that could be a sell is retention. Retaining new grads beyond a year or two is notoriously difficult. If you’d have data or proof that this approach significantly increases retention and…

> It’s true that if you can say “you can hire from {top N colleges like MIT}” then this would be attractive.

I'm not even sure this is true. The big tech companies that they are targeting can already hire from the top programs.

> Trouble is, this won’t scale beyond the top 10

This is the rub. How many graduates do the top 10 programs put out annually? That's a very hard cap on this sort of system, even if employers get on board with farming recruiting out to a bunch of undergrads. Picking very loose numbers of 10,000 grads annually, an incredible 10% adoption rate of the program, and $10,000 charged per placement. That's... 10m in revenue per year.

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#57

To any team of students considering applying for this, please let me suggest an alternative: Don't waste your time working for the kind of company that would choose to hire through such a program. Instead, build something together that you think would make a positive difference in the world. Don't squander your lives selling advertisements or developing weapons or "increasing the efficiency of the markets". Don't sel…

[deleted]

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#58

As a former hiring manager, I am a little puzzled what the deal is for employers . New grad positions are usually the easiest to fill, by far - much easier than any software engineering position where you’re hiring for some former experience. Also, new grads are almost always put on a team with more experienced engineers - one new grad at a time. This is so they get mentorship, onboarding and taking team dynamics int…

The obvious hyper-brogrammer generator. Sounds like the opposite of what everyone wants.

Re: BYOT: Bring your own team for new-grads

#59

As a former hiring manager, I am a little puzzled what the deal is for employers . New grad positions are usually the easiest to fill, by far - much easier than any software engineering position where you’re hiring for some former experience. Also, new grads are almost always put on a team with more experienced engineers - one new grad at a time. This is so they get mentorship, onboarding and taking team dynamics int…

Indeed, that is one of the primary concerns on the employer side we've heard. It is easier to hire new grads for sure. Our solution to that is to offer highly desirable engineers. Our founding group is a set of high school friends, currently all juniors at Caltech, CMU, and MIT. In our first batch, we have numerous groups with high Putnam scores, high ranking competitive programmers, and 2+ FAANG internships. There w…

> Our founding group is a set of high school friends, currently all juniors at Caltech, CMU, and MIT. In our first batch, we have numerous groups with high Putnam scores, high ranking competitive programmers, and 2+ FAANG internships. There will likely be a sense of FOMO for companies in order to recruit these groups, as they'd be losing out on multiple highly regarded talents.

Don't take this the wrong way, I don't want to subtract anything from your accomplishments. What you are describing as "highly regarded" is primarily different forms of artificial tests that provide a leading indicator of talent or quality, but are not the same thing as having a proven track record of success shipping high quality software.

Most companies, especially larger companies, even tech companies, are more conservative than they let on. What you are essentially doing is showing "benchmarks" for a team the way one would for hardware, but the thing that really matters isn't how well something scores on benchmarks, it's how well it runs the actual application that your business cares about. Conservative companies don't buy hardware on the basis of benchmarks, they wait for reviews using their applications or get a proof of concept built. So it goes with hiring as well.

As someone who's hired many engineers, when I think "highly regarded", I think someone that people I know and respect in the workplace speak about with positive reviews and references, not someone who has a high rank on LC, a high GPA, and won a math contest. Of course, this is unfair for new grads because they cannot have met anyone who would refer them yet, except perhaps through internships. That's the reality of things though, and it's part of why who you know is often as important or more important than what you know in life.

I would find this program more compelling as a hiring manager if it was a team of people who had previously worked together (even if that was in college) but had individual separate work experiences showing success outside the team, e.g. 2-3 years after you have all bagged your first full-time job. At that point, you would have each individually demonstrated success, and have described a preference for working together with strong camaraderie. That's worth hiring as a group at a premium, since team morale and camaraderie is often one of the most crucial pieces of performance.

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