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The Hare programming language

harelang.org

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Re: The Hare programming language

#151

Post by wchar_t »

turminal wrote: post #87
jpe90 wrote: post #84

Since the language is officially announced now, here's an interesting analysis on the language: https://tilde.team/~kiedtl/blog/hare/ Personally I'm very interesting in playing with it. Generics, functional programming constructs, and a lot of the syntactic sugar you find in modern languages have their uses but I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that you might not want them in a systems language. I think clea…

> Since the language is officially announced now, here's an interesting analysis on the language: https://tilde.team/~kiedtl/blog/hare/ Just a reminder (since I can't see a date in the blog post) that this was written almost a year ago. Lots of things have changed in the language since then.

Yes, it is indeed outdated, however some of the criticism/praise is still relevant. I'll see if I can take a second look at the language in the coming days.

Re: The Hare programming language

#152

Post by turminal »

wchar_t wrote: post #151
turminal wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since the language is officially announced now, here's an interesting analysis on the language: https://tilde.team/~kiedtl/blog/hare/ Just a reminder (since I can't see a date in the blog post) that this was written almost a year ago. Lots of things have changed in the language since then.

Yes, it is indeed outdated, however some of the criticism/praise is still relevant. I'll see if I can take a second look at the language in the coming days.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply it's not relevant.

Re: The Hare programming language

#153

Post by jstimpfle »

vladharbuz wrote: post #104
FrozenVoid wrote: post #95

Lack of macros in recent systems languages like Zig/Hare/etc seems to be a design flaw, a handicap marketed as safety feature or bargain for clarity. If a language can't replace C macros, it cannot replace C.

Could you expand on this? I'm really curious why you think so. I have written and worked with C codebases that do quite well without using macros at all.

It could be portability stuff, like compiler-dependent attributes.

It could be fixing shortcomings of the languages without a huge complicated system that needs to be built into the language (and if it isn't, you can't just switch languages).

It could be dirty hacks that abstract a problem at the syntactic level (this is the kind of macro that is most likely to be replaced).

Re: The Hare programming language

#154

Post by minroot »

staticassertion wrote: post #19

lol my other post got flagged, so let me reiterate perhaps in a less inflammatory way. It is disappointing to see that "trust the programmer" is a design goal. Programmers can not be trusted with manual memory management. We have decades of proof, billions and billions of dollars of bug fixes and mitigation investments, real world damages, etc. Building a language like this and saying you hope it will be the foundati…

How would I trust the programers who implement automatic memory management that they are not going to make any mistake?

Re: The Hare programming language

#155

Post by eatonphil »

turminal wrote: post #149
eatonphil wrote: post #144

It looks like self-hosting is still WIP. Do I have that right? * https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/hare/tree/master/item/cmd/harec * https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/hare/tree/master/item/hare * https://harelang.org/blog/2021-03-14-a-self-hosting-toolchain/

Yes There is one more significant (but not user-visible) change planned for the language before we continue working on that.

What is that?

Re: The Hare programming language

#156

Post by jstimpfle »

BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #106
FrozenVoid wrote: post #95

Lack of macros in recent systems languages like Zig/Hare/etc seems to be a design flaw, a handicap marketed as safety feature or bargain for clarity. If a language can't replace C macros, it cannot replace C.

What necessary use case of macros isn’t addressed by comptime in zig?

I can't really judge, I've barely tried Zig but... Maybe X-macros? Maybe compiler-specific attributes? Maybe reducing some syntactic clutter?

Re: The Hare programming language

#157

Post by cestith »

kaba0 wrote: post #138
vladharbuz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two cents: low-level programming languages (e.g. with manual memory management) are essential for tasks like writing operating systems, video games, real-time audio applications and other such things. There are few low-level programming languages available currently. The most used is C, and while it has its wonderful parts, C can also cause a lot of headaches and bugs. Whether C++ is a good replacement is a can of…

Not trying to take away anything, but just from the top of my head: Zig, Rust, Odin, Beef lang and then don’t forget about those that even precede C like Fortran or Pascal.

I think any discussion of small, performant, fairly memory-safe languages could include Forth or Factor. Speaking of the Pascal family, we could also stand for someone to put time into a more modern Oberon or a standard subset of Ada.

Re: The Hare programming language

#158

Post by minroot »

ed_elliott_asc wrote: post #75
ddevault wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not supporting Windows and macOS will likely hurt the adoption of the language. Not among our target audience it won't. > Anyway, is it possible to target bare-metal with Hare? Is it possible to use it without the standard library? Yes. Here are two kernels written in Hare that don't use the stdlib: https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/helios https://git.sr.ht/~yerinalexey/carrot

Who are your target audience?

To my thinking, users of open-source operating systems

Re: The Hare programming language

#159

Post by cestith »

FrozenVoid wrote: post #95

Lack of macros in recent systems languages like Zig/Hare/etc seems to be a design flaw, a handicap marketed as safety feature or bargain for clarity. If a language can't replace C macros, it cannot replace C.

C doesn't exactly have macros. That's a text substitution done by the preprocessor in its own limited, special-purpose language. True hygienic macros of something like Common Lisp are a different beast.

If all you want are textual substitutions, you can use the C preprocessor in front of any language.

Re: The Hare programming language

#160

Post by jrexilius »

First off, congrats and thank you for putting this out there. Its a massive undertaking and I think the niche you are looking at is a valid one. At a superficial first glance, this looks very welcoming, and I'm definitely going to tinker with it. My expected use case will be embedded arm so I'll have to wait for support for that. And as many have expressed, my primary concern is safety and security, so tooling around proof assistants or formal verification are of interest to me. All of that takes time and community effort, I know. Good luck and thank you for giving the world years of your teams work.
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