No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#941

Post by goodpoint » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:38 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #749

zelphirkalt wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. What about other things though, which are not the job, but still require effort/work? Like working on free software, working for a social project, being politically active, doing things of charity reasons ... Those don't require one to define oneself in terms of how far one has gotten in their career, but they actually add value to society. In many cases adding more value to society than the actual job. I think i…

Volunteering tends to be an elite activity anyway. When people have to work multiple full-time jobs just to survive, it's just not very helpful or meaningful to ask whether they might find their inner fulfillment by helping out at the local animal shelter.

> elite activity ... full-time jobs just to survive

That's a heck of a false dichotomy. People are either billionaires or working at mcdonalds now?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#942

Post by DeathArrow » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:41 AM UTC

fartcannon wrote: post #572

influx wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Just try and find a plumber, carpenter or contractor that isn’t backlogged for months. There’s a ton of really good blue collar jobs, often where you are your own boss. Unfortunately, society is pushing everyone to college.

It's possible that most people just dont want to be plumbers, right? Maybe they would like a chance to do something they think is more interesting. To suggest people just do the thing that makes them money highlights another problem if you ask me.

So people should do only what they like and society is to fulfill anyone's wish and expectation?

How would this be doable?

Here's an alternative: everyone is responsible for himself, society is responsible only for the ill end disabled. Everyone is provided with a framework that enables him to learn, work and find himself a way to live and fulfill his wishes.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#943

Post by hamter » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

This is such a weird take. Is the conclusion here that the upper class needs to adopt a sigma grindset and get married more because it'll influence the poors to be less antisocial? Like none of the systemic rot or declining wages over the past 50 years matters?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#944

Post by burntoutfire » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:47 AM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #301

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

> The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men. My family’s rigid expectations have been such a blessing. Émile Durkheim basically introduced the discipline of sociology with his study of suicide. He found that the ratio of suicide was higher among protestants than among catholics, and concluded that it was because they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to d…

> He found that the ratio of suicide was higher among protestants than among catholics, and concluded that it was because they were less embedded in strict norms, and freer to do whatever they pleased, compared to the stronger social control among catholics. So, freedom turned out to be not necessarily a good thing.

Interesting, I'm from a catholic country and my characterisation of those two religions is basically opposite. Chill and rules-skirting catholics (Poles, Italians) vs uptight and law-abiding protestants (Englishmen, Scandinavians etc.).

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#945

Post by burntoutfire » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:49 AM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #119

rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a matter of luck—men in my dad’s village in Bangladesh start families, have kids, and live relatively happy lives in poverty even most poor Americans could not comprehend. I don’t think it’s fair to call all these guys incels. As the article observes, most just have no expectations placed on them, and also have no way of attaining dignity and social worth through the avenues in life reasonably available to t…

It is sunday morning. I'm at work (military). Part of that job is checking in with people at a half-dozen other locations who are also at work on a sunday morning. they just happen to all be hetero guys, which is not unusual in the military no matter the day. So I asked in our chat whether they had wives/girlfriends at home today. "No." "Nope." "My car is my GF" and "Rocking a peppi shirt under my uniform". These are…

Selection bias. It's the kind of guys you'll find at work on a sunday morning, while the family men are at home with their families.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#946

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:53 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #824

giantg2 wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural factors that can influence the measures and outcomes.

But the argument is that Bangladeshi villages are more peaceful than American inner cities, despite being vastly poorer, because of cultural reasons. It’s almost as if America has a more traditional culture in the past—when it was poorer than today—and then there were massive cultural changes around the same time crime started skyrocketing.

"But the argument is..."

Interesting. This seems quite different from the argument you were making in your prior comment (two parents and income differences).

Yes, cultural differences can explain some crime patterns. Not all of those cultural differences are tied to income and two parent families.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#947

Post by engineeringwoke » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 10:55 AM UTC

DeathArrow wrote: post #917

engineeringwoke wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated elsewhere in the thread, northern Europe bucks this "trend" that the author sees. The nuclear family is as weak as it has ever been, christianity and its ideals are an afterthought, and people have never been happier.

And yet the suicide rate in Norway is among the highest in the world. Crafted studies proclaim people to be happy but they forgot what happiness is.

If I had a nickel for every time the wikipedia link to whataboutism was the correct response to a hacker news comment, I would be rich

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#948

Post by wickedsickeune » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 11:01 AM UTC

DeathArrow wrote: post #927

gumby wrote: post #19

It’s interesting to read these (plausible, far from absurd) analyses from the Anglosphere when we have an alternative to compare, to whit the northern European democracies where marriage is in steep decline across all social classes yet the societies are more successful (at least if your metrics are things like poverty rates, lifetimes, nutrition, stress, etc).

Suicide rate in Norway is 11.8,while in Greece (a more traditional society) is 3.6. By metric of happiness and self fulfillment, it seems Greece is much better than Norway.

Why are suicides a metric of happiness?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#949

Post by ss108 » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

cercatrova wrote: post #855

ensan wrote: post #851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Go on reddit, the refrains of "eat the rich" are quite common. People there hate the rich and the elite." Well, an argument is lost if it starts by referring to the people who post on reddit. But do people really hate an expert contractor who is rich but does an excellent job of repairing their house? Do they hate a prominent surgeon or medical professional? Are they against being represented by an elite law firm? P…

There are rich people on reddit too, such as those on /r/fatFIRE. > But do people really hate an expert contractor who is rich but does an excellent job of repairing their house? Do they hate a prominent surgeon or medical professional? Are they against being represented by an elite law firm? People hate John Carmack because he is a rich and prominent graphics programmer? Those people are not what one would consider…

The way I have been using it is basically anyone comfortably well-off and educated, living in a major city.

When the political right uses the term "coastal elite", etc.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#950

Post by ss108 » Mon, Apr 25, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

ensan wrote: post #840

ss108 wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have never encountered an individual who claims to hate the 'elite'" I don't know what to tell you there. Go talk to more individuals? Go read some right-wing propaganda (e.g. almost anything that comes out Josh Hawley's mouth, or certain off-bench remarks from Justices Alito and Thomas--and yes, all of these individuals are also "elite", but because their views are in the minority among elites, they can't like th…

As you said, Hawley (Stanford and Yale alumni), JD Vance (Yale alumni), even Trump (from a wealthy family and Penn alumni) are all political elites but also quite popular with the right-wingers. So it's not really about hating the elite, unless by the elite you means a specific subset of Democrat politicians and activists. How many people would object to being operated on by a prominent Harvard surgeon because that p…

"As you said, Hawley (Stanford and Yale alumni), JD Vance (Yale alumni), even Trump (from a wealthy family and Penn alumni) are all political elites but also quite popular with the right-wingers. So it's not really about hating the elite, unless by the elite you means a specific subset of Democrat politicians and activists."

They appeal to their base in part by disavowing that status. Hawley and Vance in particular are pretty much throwing out much of what they learned in law school by cozying up to Trump with the stolen election bs. Going off of their credentials is silly, and I think you know that--listen to what they say. They are feeding upon and taking advantage of the rabid anti-intellectualism and anti-elite hatred of their base.