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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#861

Post by marcusverus »

the_solenoid wrote: post #410
jcstk wrote: post #132

I can appreciate this perspective because I used to have it. I even wrote a similar blog post 10 years ago - it was on the top of HN and the comment section was a beautiful shitshow. For me, this perspective was a good story to tell myself - it justified why I was only investing my time in “work”, and validated me for having “come so far”. Over time, I have reflected and shifted this perspective. That reflection cent…

I agree - and will take it one step further: he misses the root causes of "instability", and I bet it tracks directly with the gutting of the middle class starting in the 70's, and/or the same flat-lining of wages (not keeping up with inflation etc) despite huge increases in productivity in about the same time period. Money is a huge stressor in relationships. Misogyny is still a huge thing (to my utter surprise hone…

> I bet it tracks directly with the gutting of the middle class starting in the 70's

This belief is oddly common, considering it has no basis in reality. The share of adults living in households with sub-middle-class incomes has only grown by 4% since 1971.[0] The share of adults living in upper-class households grew by more (5%)! And this even as the number of single-adult households has soared[1], reducing the average number of earners per household!

[0]https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-america... [1]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2011/12/14/barely-...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#862

Post by tcmart14 »

rayiner wrote: post #824
giantg2 wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural factors that can influence the measures and outcomes.

But the argument is that Bangladeshi villages are more peaceful than American inner cities, despite being vastly poorer, because of cultural reasons. It’s almost as if America has a more traditional culture in the past—when it was poorer than today—and then there were massive cultural changes around the same time crime started skyrocketing.

I do want to throw in an alternative. Is it cultural, or are we all disconnected from the communities we live in because we now all view our communities as existing online? People used to be able name everyone who lived on their street and knew where they worked and a little bit about them. I have a feeling this is becoming a lot more rare. And it isn't so much of culture, but of becoming disconnected with the communities we live in. The Bangladeshi village is having BBQs with neighbors, not sitting on the couch doom scrolling twitter or consuming hours of tiktok videos.

Because people know their neighbors personally, they are less likely to steal and more likely to intervene when they see someone they don't know snooping around someone else's property. Or hell, even know who lives in the house.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#863

Post by caseysoftware »

I find this line interesting:

Amy, a white thirty-year-old mother of three, ages six, five, and three, had a boyfriend who worked steadily but insisted on spending on selfish pursuits. This is what eventually broke the young couple up. ‘He wouldn’t spend money for the kids’ food. I had to send my kids across the street to my mom’s to feed them and stuff. That’s what I got fed up with. I shouldn’t have to live like that…I said it’s time for him to support these kids instead of [me] being on [assistance], and he didn’t like it.’”

To put it another way: He didn't want to support another man's children (or various men's children). I think that's entirely reasonable but a better approach would have been to not get involved with Amy at all.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#864

Post by parineum »

bradlys wrote: post #634
the_solenoid wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - and will take it one step further: he misses the root causes of "instability", and I bet it tracks directly with the gutting of the middle class starting in the 70's, and/or the same flat-lining of wages (not keeping up with inflation etc) despite huge increases in productivity in about the same time period. Money is a huge stressor in relationships. Misogyny is still a huge thing (to my utter surprise hone…

The author of this article used Charles Murray’s Coming Apart as a source. He’s a pretty… controversial figure. The counterpart to him that is more progressive and less controversial is Robert Putnam. His books are a lot more digestible. I’d suggest looking up talks with the author on YouTube. (He even has a debate with Charles Murray - as they are somewhat of friends) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone ht…

I noticed that you didn't mention which of these arguments were good or bad.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#865

Post by hotpotamus »

rayiner wrote: post #761
hotpotamus wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've seen, there's an entire industry of conservative economists Like Arthur Laffer and Larry Kudlow (to name a mere two, there are entire billionaire funded thinktanks like AEI dedicated to this) to deny the reality of the issues you mention, not unlike scientists paid to deny Climate Change or Tobacco's cancer links. And because of this, conservatives don't even believe that such issues exist.

There’s also a couple of billion people in Asia who think the exact same way as the author about families and culture. I’ve never read Laffer or Kudlow. I’m interpreting society through the values of my Bangladeshi parents. And they lead me to the same conclusion. And given the remarkably higher income mobility of Asian kids raised in the bottom income compared to white kids, I think social liberals are sticking thei…

I don't see how this relates to the question the parent comment was asking. But yes, the US does have a history with resentment of Asian immigrants, one of the first laws regarding immigration was the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, and you may be able to surmise from the title what that law did. I think you'll find that conservatives make very capricious allies once they believe you are "stealing their jobs".

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#866

Post by tcmart14 »

AviationAtom wrote: post #79

I teach many folks that have just left high school, and entered the military. Their being content with doing pretty much nothing shocks me. Seeing the military enabling the behavior, even more so. All because recruiting is so hard right now. Many of the recruits do join the military because they have exhausted other options. It's sad to see how productive society once was, versus where we are now. It legitimately mak…

I got out of the Navy in 2018 and I have experience a rather different tale. I found many enterprising people in the military, but all somewhat naive. The amount of pyramid schemes and get rich quick schemes I've seen people do or try to push on me was amazing. One that stands out is the Vemma/Verve one. About half the ship was hell bent on they were all gonna get rich on Verve.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#867

Post by formerkrogemp »

jacobolus wrote: post #764
danans wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And how do you explain high levels of family stability in countries that are much poorer? Less individual freedom, greater direct economic dependency on others in your group, and also the threat of ostracization, excommunication, and destitution if you go against its rules. Basically, there are extremely high cost/stakes associated with going it on your own. But on the other side there are also good things that com…

In some places people have centuries of social-structure adaptation to deal with the stress of being systematically oppressed (by local elites, colonial overlords, ...). E.g. money gets shielded by community institutions (such as local religious organizations) that are harder for elites to steal from than individual peasants, and then those act as a kind of social safety net in hard times. Extended families/clans bui…

I don't think describing them as "rural peasant societies" is a great perspective to assume.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#868

Post by hackerfromthefu »

Longlius wrote: post #315
rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

It's not merely expectations but intergenerational poverty. I get that you think that you came from a less privileged background than your in-laws and in some respects that's true, but even being able to immigrate to the US indicates a degree of social mobility that simply isn't available to the intergenerationally poor in rural America. These are people who grew up in places without anything to do, no training for h…

Why should one be expected to 'get ahead' if they didn't have skills and prepare for having an income to allow this, but had 4 kids? The rational answer there is to to have less kids, and spend more time working on a career!

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#869

Post by photochemsyn »

Applejinx wrote: post #533
photochemsyn wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of the elite wealthy class and their media sock puppets on both sides of the traditional left/right political divide are dedicated to pushing the identitarian culture war theme - because what they don't want to deal with is something like this: "Creating an economy where men can attain dignity and social respect."

As notacoward observes… literally 'men'? To my ear, 'people' would've worked too. I feel it's always worth asking whether there are unstated axioms here being snuck into the discourse. Especially in a big conversation about how 'everything is being ruined because people won't stick to the old good ways'. Though it may be an uncomfortable question to some, to what extent does this rest upon female humans serving as li…

Well, I was just modifying OP's line and replacing culture with economy. 'Human beings' would be fine as well.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#870

Post by hackerfromthefu »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #298
galfarragem wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment. I would just make a minor but relevant change, everybody is responsible here. "And creating a culture where men and women are told it’s okay not to do those things creates harm."

The article is specifically about men having children with women, then leaving the family by one means or another. While your inclusivity works in many places, the problem here is well defined as young men not striving for family stability.

Your implication is that women are not part of the dynamic of the relationship

Thats just nuts

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