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Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

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Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#31
I've been using Migadu for about four years. My main complaint is that the support is not good. To be fair, they do not promise to hold your hand. And that's fine, I can usually diagnose my own mail problems.

Here is an example. I have one family member who wants to keep her email address on the family domain but have all her mail forwarded to her address @gmail. So I have migadu forward her mail to google's gmail server. One day that forwarding stopped working. So I asked migadu to check why the forwarding was failing.

They replied that they have no way to do this, and I shouldn't be forwarding to gmail. I've never heard of an email service that can't forward! They pointed me to this doc: https://www.migadu.com/guides/gmail/

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#32

I've used Migadu and MXRoute and found Migadu to be the easiest to use by a long shot. MXRoute's setup and configuration is full of friction and just odd ways of doing simple things like logging into your account or adding email addresses and the like. It sounds more like you have philosophical differences with these 2 companies, as they are very opinionated right out the gate, as you noted. I think, since they're sm…

>But it really does sound like you're going to need to roll your own service based on your major complaints.

Ideally that'd be more the norm, but unfortunately it's significantly more hassle than would be ideal. Uptime is an issue, though most senders should retry through brief outages. Management/security updates of course aren't negligible, though in principle fairly manageable. Probably the big issue is deliverability to the big players like Gmail. They're as bad at support and opaque there as everywhere else, if you don't know someone and/or aren't big enough regardless of what boxes you check you can have email just vanish into the ether which is generally unacceptable.

One solution might be to use a decent commercial SMTP relay service to proxy that part (ie., Amazon SES/Mailgun/Postmark/SendGrid etc). Those tend to be aimed at commercial operations doing high volume but can start low enough to be worth considering. But all in all it's hard to do well despite email being so old and undemanding anything made in decades can run it fine. The foundations just aren't there to cheaply autoscale around abuse. Like, ideally we'd have secure DNS to depend on, that in turn would allow standards for just having a CA root cert for a domain put right into the domain's DNS records, in turn allowing distributed signing/encryption and making spoofing of email addresses non-trivial. No sending of any kind allowed without having it signed by something in the domain CA's trust chain. Remaining abuse after that could managed far more easily, reliably, and perhaps most important deterministically.

No such luck though! Leaving us stuck paying ludicrous amounts and dealing with a lot of crap for a service that an RPi is already has orders of magnitude more power than it should need for :(.

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#33
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTR I've migrated from Google Apps to Migadu and I'm pretty happy with them but I must say the "acceptable use" clause also raised my suspicion. I guess they don't scan your email automatically but when someone brings to their attention that you're using the service for "unacceptable things" they will trigger the termination. Which, to be honest, happens with other providers even if that's not in the ToS (see Cloudfl…

>I guess they don't scan your email automatically but when someone brings to their attention that you're using the service for "unacceptable things" Maybe they don't. But, as I said in another comment, I'd prefer not to depend on what I think they mean, when they might actually mean something else. Besides, as I said in the original post who decides what is 'socially acceptable'? It's not too long ago that being gay…

> I don't care what the mechanics of the censuring process are. But I know I don't want to trust my correspondence to a company which sets itself up as an arbitrator of social acceptability and morality.

Then your only choice is self hosting because the provider can, and will, enforce any rules that they deem necessary even if they don't put it in the ToS explicitly (usually hidden behind "ToS can change at any time" clause). I've given the Cloudflare/Nazi case as an example.

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#34
I'm not sure if this fits your needs or not, but have you considered self hosting with Cloudron? Free plan would work for you so you'd only be paying for the VPS.

It makes administrating and backing up an email server a breeze. Only real requirement is that you have your own domain name, and know how to generate API keys for a few services (really easy). Helps ensure you have all the important mail settings (SPF, DMARC, etc) set up.

I use BuyVM for the VPS because I can set up one of the mail settings, but you could easily use another provider (Hetzner might be good if you need a lot of space).

Also... you could host Nextcloud and OnlyOffice on the Cloudron box under the free plan as well... which is pretty much like hosting One Drive and Microsoft 365. A little more complexity to manage, but still very easy.

Now one thing to keep in mind... you still have a single point of failure in your domain name provider. It they don't act responsibly, there's not much you can do.

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#36
post #34

I'm not sure if this fits your needs or not, but have you considered self hosting with Cloudron? Free plan would work for you so you'd only be paying for the VPS. It makes administrating and backing up an email server a breeze. Only real requirement is that you have your own domain name, and know how to generate API keys for a few services (really easy). Helps ensure you have all the important mail settings (SPF, DMA…

Friends don't let friends self-host email servers.

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#37

> Quite apart from the fact that this implies that Migadu are scanning the content of every email that their users send; what the actual fuck is a bloody email server company doing, taking on the role of arbitrating what is 'Nazi', 'immoral' or 'socially unacceptable'? Do they mention anywhere that they are actually scanning the content and/or metadata? I'd assume this just means that if they get reports about using…

>Do they mention anywhere that they are actually scanning the content and/or metadata? No. But they don't say they aren't either. I prefer not to rely on "I thought you meant..." "No, we actually meant..." when it comes to contracts.

I bet that most of these terms also forbid sending malware or spam. How is that meaningfully different when it comes to scanning email content?

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#38
I have been using MXRoute continuously for the last 3-4 years as both my own personal email service, as well as reselling it to several of my clients for their business email services.

The pricing is hard to beat, but the service is sort of no frills. It's been 100% reliable since I began using it, but the UI, documentation, and process for setting up domains with LetsEncrypt SSL and DKIM/SPF is...unrefined is a good way of putting it. Once you find the appropriate documentation (it exists, it's just not always where you'd first look for it) everything is straightforward.

I pay for 40GB of storage (I think I pay ~$25/40GB, but it's low enough that I literally don't recall), and from there I can host as many domains, email accounts, aliases, and my choice of webmail services incl. Rainloop, Squirrelmail, Roundcube, and MXLogin. Recently they've even added an option for Horde along with a slew of other groupware products such as Nextcloud, OpenOffice, and MatterMost--any/all can be deployed under any of my registered domains with little more than a few clicks. As long as I don't exceed my storage quota, my annual bill is always the same.

It's white label, so I can brand all of the relevant client-facing endpoints and products with logos, color themes, and custom URLs with LetsEncrypt SSL. Things like spam control are nothing to write home about, but my philosophy is to pay someone like MXRoute to handle the actual Dovecot/Postfix/DNS/security and then I can self-host or integrate the other features I want/need like spam control, sieve routing, and proxies. That's everything I can think of to define my experience with MXRoute. Mostly positive, albeit unrefined. I haven't had any cause to seek out their customer service, but I wouldn't expect anything too stellar, just given how their website's account management and documentation is setup, and the relatively little effort I have seen in maintaining communication for things like upcoming invoices. To be fair, I've not had any bad experiences with them, but the reports you mention don't strike me as surprising either.

Bottom line - MXRoute is a solid choice for flexibility and affordability, but only for a specific type of user.

It is suitable for:

- People who are typically self-sufficient, and are looking to strike a middle ground between total DIY/roll-your-own solution and a walled-garden hosted service like Microsoft or Google.

- Someone who is comfortable managing things like domain registrations, DNS, and DKIM/SPF/DMARC records, and who can seek out and parse sometimes spotty documentation without requiring hand-holding from customer support.

- Orgs that need/want the option to resell basic hosted email/groupware services to clients. Just bear in mind, you are the customer support for anyone you are reselling services to.

- Orgs that might need a lot of accounts/addresses, but don't consume excessive amounts of raw storage space for emails.

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#39
Chip in with a couple of friends who might be on the lookout for a gmail/proton/whatever alternative as well, get an OpenBSD VPS at 1984 Hosting, C*ckbox, FlokiNET, or basically any other hoster that allows communication via port 25 and set up OpenSMTPd and Dovecot. There are plenty[0] write-ups[1] on how to do so in case you need info.

[0] https://poolp.org/posts/2019-08-30/you-should-not-run-your-m...

[1] https://karchnu.fr/posts/2020-09-17-certificate-smtp-imap-an...

Re: Ask HN: Migadu? Postale? Mxroute? Or any other mail services using this model?

#40
post #21

One potential option is using CloudFlare email routing. You can use it with a regular public provider (gmail for example). CloudFlare will handle the MX side of things for your custom domain and route your emails to the public provider without requiring it to use the custom domain. The issue I’ve found is that it’s hard to set up a reply address to reply as the original email was received, so this may not work perfec…

There are ways around this where you use an smtp service like sendgrid or aws ses. But configuring this is not for novices.
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