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Gen Z does not dream of labor

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Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#101
post #60

Um, stupid question… Who TF “dreams” of being some billionare’s “labor”? Folks “labor” out of a lack of choice; so they might survive in this world. They labor for the chance to dream.

People routinely comment on this site about how they enjoy engineering and challenging problems, and how they dislike jobs with meetings, or not enough work, or fluff. Those people, perhaps without realizing it, often enjoy 'being some billionare’s labor'.

I get what you're saying, but TFA isn't really referring to highly skilled labor. It's referring to filling the jobs that very, very few people actually want to do. The garbage collectors. The wait staff. Toll booth operators. Assembly line workers. Taxi drivers. Construction laborers. Truck loading/unloading. Ditch diggers. And so on.

And even those with the coveted skills - they'd probably rather work for themselves than someone else. But either they don't have the business skills, or the financial means.

That said, sure, speaking in absolutes is absolutely wrong. ;)

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#103

> “My dad got a job straight out of high school, saved up, and bought a house in his 20s,” said Anne Dakota, a 21-year-old receptionist from Asheville, North Carolina, who earns minimum wage. “I don’t even think that’s possible for me, at least with the current money I make.” I think this is pretty much the whole story. It’s very hard to be motivated to work when you could save your entire adult life and still strugg…

The problem with this narrative is that the job of the father isn't specified. He could've been a plumber/electrician/welder who would do really well in the current market. These jobs pay well above the minimum wage. The world has changed - simple labor that requires a few days of training doesn't pay much. Most jobs, with few exceptions, that require a decade of training, do pay well. That's why there's such a huge…

> you have to choose your specialization wisely

The problem is that most people don't get to choose. There are few of these high paying jobs, so by definition most people are excluded. Either because they're not "smart" enough to get into elite training programs (e.g. medical school) or because they don't have enough money to spend years in training with zero or negative income.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#104

> “My dad got a job straight out of high school, saved up, and bought a house in his 20s,” said Anne Dakota, a 21-year-old receptionist from Asheville, North Carolina, who earns minimum wage. “I don’t even think that’s possible for me, at least with the current money I make.” I think this is pretty much the whole story. It’s very hard to be motivated to work when you could save your entire adult life and still strugg…

Unmotivated people were always in this same boat, and always will be.

Counter narrative: Nigerians come to the US and have excellent upward mobility. The ones I know are willing to work hard, defer gratification, and sacrifice for their children.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#105
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great trick to make an old pattern sound like news is to present an age-related phenomenon as a generation-related phenomenon. "Teenagers are acting like teenagers" can't be spun as news, but "Gen Z is acting like teenagers" can be.

That's mostly true however there's a lot of data that shows worrying trends. For example, millennials don't have anywhere near as much share of wealth as Gen X had at the same age. Wealth is being pretty heavily concentrated at the top of the age brackets.

Isn't wealth _always_ more concentrated in higher age brackets? It's only logical that the longer you've been around (and more dues you've paid) the more you opportunity you've had to accumulate whatever you're after.

> millennials don't have anywhere near as much share of wealth as Gen X had

I hate to go there, but isn't this because of their unrealistic views on work? I've heard of millennials not turning up for work because they "didn't feel like working" that day. Anecdotal, sure, but I've heard too many of these stories from too many different people for it to be co-incidence. You don't want to work, well okay that's your prerogative, but how can you then complain about getting fired?

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#106

> “My dad got a job straight out of high school, saved up, and bought a house in his 20s,” said Anne Dakota, a 21-year-old receptionist from Asheville, North Carolina, who earns minimum wage. “I don’t even think that’s possible for me, at least with the current money I make.” I think this is pretty much the whole story. It’s very hard to be motivated to work when you could save your entire adult life and still strugg…

This is part of why I left my job. I had the realization that my dream (homeownership/2 kids) was untenable with my income (~$135K TC) in my area. I could certainly get the credit for it, but my life would be one long hardship living under wage slavery, being house-poor, having little free time, paying exorbitantly to watch others raise my kids, and not having the opportunities I currently have... I kinda gave up on…

Look into equal work, equal pay companies (was trending on twitter like yesterday)

That I can remember of: Vercel, Gatsby, Gitlab, and much more.

Move to somewhere cheaper if you can?

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#107
I think there are several things driving this, not necessarily generational:

Many employers (not the tech industry) enjoyed a weak labor market for roughly 2 decades. And each time when things began to heat up a recession would come by and cool things down - flooding the market with newly unemployed qualified candidates.

This sustained discrepancy caused many employers "people management" skills to atrophy. Treating employees badly was OK because 1) Where else are they going to go? 2) Even if they quit you can just hire someone else who is likely just as qualified. Because of this, anti-social behavior among management never seemed to impact the bottom line, so it became embedded into the culture of these businesses - "That's how we've always done things here!"

Things changed sharply in 2020. You had the pressure of Baby Boomers retiring. And unlike other generations, many Boomers actually saved for retirement; employers did not have the power to retain them. Second, COVID pulled a ton of people out of the workforce for several reasons: needing to provide childcare, death, "long COVID", etc all pulled people permanently or semi-permanently out of the labor pool. At the same time, consumer spending shifted placing additional demand on many industries that were now shorthanded (and short-supplied).

The problem is many of these companies do not have the ability to attract and retain employees. On your local news you might've heard a sob story of a local employer having to cut hours or close-up shop because they "can't find anyone wiling to work" - but if you dig a little deeper you'll find they have a reputation in the community for being a bad employer. People do want to work - just not for them. And because there's no longer a cushion of qualified labor that has to settle for their anti-social work environment, they can't hire anyone to operate their business due to their poor reputation among the local workforce.

If you're young, your first step into the labor market is likely going to be one where you're asked to pull double-duty by an organization that, again, has a poor reputation. Their first experience in the workforce isn't at some friendly company, but rather a hostile employer who drove experienced labor away, forcing them to "settle" for someone with no work history. Thus giving these young workers probably the worst (modern) experience possible of what it means to be in the workforce. Thus the aggressive job-hopping - it's not a candidate problem it's a company problem.

So how does this get fixed? Well, if the labor market stays hot long enough, many of the anti-social companies will just get out-competed by ones able to attract and retain skilled labor. In this situation the rising tide will NOT being lifting all boats.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#108
post #77
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a gen Zer (albeit on the older side) and I don’t feel this way about work. Probably depends what field you’re in, I quite like being a programmer.

> I quite like being a programmer. This job is truly an anomaly. There are very few careers where you can earn top 1% income with no degree, no physical exertion, under 8 hours a day "on the clock", the freedom to quit any time and have multiple new offers within days, etc, etc.

That’s the thing. I know this sounds glib, but the barrier to entry is so low ($20 5th hand laptop will do just fine to do first-steps development), I can’t understand why the market isn’t flooded with coders. So many people say “oh I could never do what you do”, and I’m like “I’m a shaved ape who wanted to play computer games and accidentally ended up learning stuff, you absolutely can”. Then they just go on saying that they’re helpless.

Out of the hundreds I’ve had this conversation with, two that I’m aware of took my advice and just tried to start making stuff. One now runs a dev shop, the other is at alphabet making bank.

I think, more than anything else, learned helplessness is crippling people. so many are mollycoddled from cradle to grave and never understand their own capabilities.

Re: Gen Z does not dream of labor

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this narrative is that the job of the father isn't specified. He could've been a plumber/electrician/welder who would do really well in the current market. These jobs pay well above the minimum wage. The world has changed - simple labor that requires a few days of training doesn't pay much. Most jobs, with few exceptions, that require a decade of training, do pay well. That's why there's such a huge…

Anecdote: I am Gen Z. This story holds true for my parents and I. My dad was a solider in Latin America, my mom, a nurse. Their job required, at most, 2 years of education beyond High School. I am a data analyst, with a Bachelor's and a Master's. I earn more than they both did together, adjusted for inflation. My friends are in "specialized jobs" as well -- some even being doctors and lawyers. We still have zero hope…

Affording a house in which geographic market?
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