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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

601–610 of 1001 posts

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#601
"I write and read about the culture and habits of elites"

He actually writes about the culture and habits of rich kids. They're not elites in any practical sense. That word does not mean "inheritor." The sycophancy of the rich, the presumption that they should be expected to be somehow better than the hoi polloi, is really getting tedious.

Someone is elite because they've accomplished something, not because they've been handed something. Attempting to apply that word to the wallet is common, and remains incorrect and gross. Yes, I know the reader can very easily Google up examples. The reader should also be able to name cases where Googling up examples gives hilariously wrong information.

Rich kids have always been slackers, in every society in human history. The real change here is that we've stopped taxing them, so "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in two generations" doesn't apply anymore.

Ayn Rand was wrong. Stop expecting wealth from parents to create high quality people.

Every study ever done on the matter has shown what common sense and literature have said all along: rich people are just lazy. It is almost certainly the clearer version "everyone who can be lazy is, but many cannot afford to be."

Hell, I would be.

We've forgotten that because we now believe that they're earning their mega-wealth by giving it to bankers to be grown for them. We pretend to ourselves that because they can pay people to produce profits from money they weren't involved in earning, they're somehow doing something. Then, we point out extremely rare individual counterexamples and say "see? See? Elon exists."

The idea that their "doing nothing" is a result of lack of social pressure is disastrously undermined by that they've also done nothing when there was social pressure, throughout all of history; even to the point that several royalties fell because nobody in the royalty could be bothered to stop looking at art and having sex long enough to keep the lights on.

We should want evidence of claims like this.

Even despite the education and resource gap, even scaled to the popular bin sizes, in all of history, the vast majority of invention and business success has come from the unwashed masses.

The null hypothesis supports this as entirely expected, unrelated to what society requests. No society in history has achieved otherwise.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your theory is that all social commentary is handwavey general remarks? If so, yes, let's invalidate it. I think effective social commentary is mostly grounded in the personal, the specific, and the (thoughtfully) statistical. Otherwise it's very easy just to project one's biases onto a complicated picture. E.g., consider whatever it is that people think is "ruining the kids" these days. In the 1700s, you know what w…

The error in your line of thinking is that you assume humans are better interpreting statistical evidence than they are broad logical arguments. I don't see any evidence of that.

It's not a error until a) you show that's the case, and b) it's material to my point.

Honestly, I don't think people are "better" at that (if such a fuzzy construction can have a useful meaning). But I do think they are more careful with it because it's harder to get right and more easy to visibly get it wrong. It's fine with me if expecting more concreteness just drastically reduces the total amount of social commentary. Even if it dropped by 99%, we'd still have more than we needed.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#603
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability." As someone both from a somewhat conservative immigrant background who is basically a coastal elite type myself, I think that statement is not particularly accurate or insightful. My main point of contention is that l…

> Absurd to blame the "educated and affluent" for lower-class abandonment of their own cultural values. The author isn't blaming the elite for the trend. In fact, he acknowledges that it has impacted all strata, even though the impact is greater at the lower end. What he's saying is that family stability is no longer a universal value. The thesis is that the elite set the fashion. He writes: "Those who sit at or near…

I'll admit/concede I may have inferred a stronger and more specific conclusion than the one the author actually meant to make.

"It's not that the elites are saying, "Start a family and stick with it," and therefor everyone else is acting out in protest; it's that the elites are not saying it."

I'm not sure what you mean here, though--like, my point is that elite rungs of society saying "Start a family and stick with it" is simply going to be irrelevant to a lot of the people the author is talking about. Would you disagree?

Like, operationally, what difference would it make? Would unemployed, lazy, drug-addled fathers unmarried to the mothers of their children get their act together if Obama had said they should more when he was POTUS? If professors at Stanford or Harvard or Brown started writing academic papers that touted this as correlated with success?

I think this is more than me just being sassy here; the author has, IMO, failed to articulate a nexus between the problematic behavior he is calling out and the on-the-ground results he laments.

The hints contained in the article about what he seems to think or imply a better situation would like just don't seem...realistic. E.g., the UN lady vocally and openly supporting stable family units and this making it into the final product of whatever they were doing--it just strikes me as nakedly preposterous that anything contained in a UN report would have a real impact on the individual behavior of anyone in America.

And I get that that's a very isolated example and that the aggregate effect of all those little interactions and omissions may be real, large, and worthy of serious attention. I just don't see the fundamental link between the phenomenon and the problems he is concerned with.

Again, I think the ultimate issue with the article is that the people he is talking about already aren't trying to strive by the criteria of whatever mixed-bag of societal values we do have. Middle-class and higher, people value education. In terms of children, they are having them later and later in life (outside of certain communities, usually religious, but sometimes ethnic/racial in general). People generally value work and they value taking care of their families. So the people in the article are already failing to take heed.

Indeed, most of us don't seem to need some distinct and clear societal emphasis on not having a kid out-of-wedlock at age 21 after having not tried to pursue either higher education or some stable trade/skill. If anything, I can't think of any group that doesn't stigmatize this. Even the groups he is referring to in the article don't need to be told that's not the proper way; it's just sadly somehow become normalized for them.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To think that the US has no social safety is also a common trope. Food stamps, medicaid, public & section 8 housing, SSDI, EI, etc. in combination with the unique opportunities allowed by American society to get back on your feet (low unemployment and barrier to entry). Americans in general have no idea how "humble" life can be for the European lower classes. Fun fact: Canada and the US have about the same homelessne…

> Americans in general have no idea how "humble" life can be for the European lower classes. Don't think said lower classes live in fear of a "major health event".

My understanding is that the poorest people are covered by medicare or get their fees waved (hospitals won't refuse to treat someone needing critical care). That is not "zero social net". Nobody is in fact jealous of the American healthcare system though. Meanwhile, in most countries in Europe, people live in fear of having to be put on wait lists that extend from months to years, or just plain being unable to access any care at all due to said systems being overloaded at times due to having much less overall slack (for example during covid).

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#605
As a middle-aged man who's been studying this stuff for a while, I'd like to throw in my observations.

We are in a Masculine Crisis, and both men and women are suffering, because gender isn't zero-sum, and a society that damages men is just as harmful to heterosexual women, who struggle to find men. Late-stage capitalism's breakdown of the family (which it molded into a bourgeois form, then let rot) happened in black communities about 40 years before it started to hit rural whites. This makes it hard to sympathize with the so-called "white working class", who clutched their pearls and moralized and showed no sympathy at all when this dysfunction was hitting blacks in Detroit, half a century ago.

What is a Masculine Crisis? Well, I think this sentence hits it straight on:

Some of the jobs he can get don’t pay enough to give him the self-respect he feels he needs, and others require him to get along with unpleasant customers and coworkers, and to maintain a submissive attitude toward the boss.

When you tell men that the only way to be masculine is to "provide", and then deprive them of all means to provide except to subject oneself to the whims of a high-status person--a person given that status not on merit but simple random accidents of heredity--you leave them without a decent choice at all. Not playing is no option (a man must "provide") but every play is a losing one (the requisite self-emasculation of subordination). Whether this is a condition of low expectations (society has given up on men) or high ones (as workplace pressures mount, due to the erosion of worker's rights and dignity) is irrelevant; either way, it shuts people down.

Of course, the experience is pretty awful for women, too. Work, for 95% of people in this society, is just horrid. No one should have to do stupid shit to survive--I hope we can agree on that. I just don't think this particular social ill is as gutting for women as it is for men.

When it comes to the Masculine Crisis, we on the left are really missing the opportunity. Ex falso quodlibet; principle of (possibly literal) explosion. When no options exist for someone, he tends to make one. I'm not an accelerationist of any kind (leftist or rightist) but acceleration is happening. Alas, the left is so deep in the cul-de-sac of gender being entirely socially constructed (which is not true) and therefore meaningless (which it's not) that they can't figure out how to operate in this environment. So, instead, the Masculine Crisis is left to be exploited by the center-right (Jordan Peterson) or worse, the actual fascists.

Conditions like this produce war. Why? Because five thousand years of human history have produced exactly one situation in which a man can be subordinate and still accept himself as a man--to pick up a weapon and join an army of some kind. Mind you, I don't want war; I'm staunchly against it except as a last resort. However, conditions like those in the modern workplace (except for those born into hereditary wealth) are at such a level as to throw young men into hopelessness... and they will often do anything for those who promise any kind of hope, no matter false.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#606

What happened? The article makes some fantastic and insightful points but one thing it ignores that I think is important is the fact we started paying people not to get married in the form of increased public benefits for single parents.

You mean that single parent would be better to stay with their abusive spouse because they depend on them financially? How’s that better?

I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying it's a significant contributing factor to the increased percentage of unmarried mothers.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#607
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s weird. Society has tried to influence me that money, wealth, status, career are beneficial. I was raised middle class. But I’ve never quite seen the point in all of it. All it’s really led to is a lifetime of beating myself up and asking what’s “wrong” with me. So I’m not sure more expectations and guilt is the answer. It’s hard to see how that would have done anything more for me.

OP isn't talking about creating expectations of money, wealth, status for their own sake. The biggest thing he says his family expected of him was to provide a stable foundation for his own children. This is something which some amount of money is necessary for, but if you focus entirely on the money you've destroyed that foundation just as thoroughly as if you failed to provide for them at all.

It seems like a bit of a nothing-burger considering how low OECD birth rates are. More men than ever are simply not having kids. So if the objective is to create a stable foundation for the next generation -- and there is none -- mission accomplished. I have no purpose. It's the same conclusion, though a different path towards it.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#608
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Just try and find a plumber, carpenter or contractor that isn’t backlogged for months. There’s a ton of really good blue collar jobs, often where you are your own boss. Unfortunately, society is pushing everyone to college.

It's possible that most people just dont want to be plumbers, right? Maybe they would like a chance to do something they think is more interesting. To suggest people just do the thing that makes them money highlights another problem if you ask me.

The question at hand is whether there are opportunities for people to make a living and support a family, not whether everyone can have a dream job. For the majority of humans throughout time, work has never been something that people do because they couldn't think of anything they'd rather be doing. It's always been a means to an end.

Your comment suggests that it's not opportunities that have been lost in recent decades, it's that the younger generations' expectations for what life owes them have changed.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, to a point. But it's not accurate to claim that the lack of dream jobs out there means that there are fewer opportunities for gainful employment than in generations prior.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#609
post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

I find his overall argument that it is "trickle down values" that are responsible for many of the overall social ills of the poor extremely lacking in evidence, and if anything I think he's confused cause and effect.

Totally agree. I don't understand what the mechanism of values "trickling down" is meant to be. In my experience, none of the people "downstream" care or are even at all aware of what the "upstream" elites think. Like, is the claim really that the deadbeat dad in his 30s mentioned in the OP got his values from an academic seminar on family formation? It's incoherent...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law could be described as “baring presentations about sex (straight or otherwise) to a classroom of 5-8 year olds” One of the authors of the bill was asked if a math textbook that had a word problem saying "Jimmy and his dads go to the store..." would be in violation of this law. He responded that this was precisely the sort of thing the law was intending to prevent. The law is very much not just about direct s…

Such subversively worded math problems should be avoided, no matter who the named parties are. "Jimmy, Jack, and John go to the store..." would be just as effective of a setup for a story problem without sneaking in moral displays.

Are they also going to avoid tacit mentions of heterosexual relationships?
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