No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#491

Post by wpietri » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

simulate-me wrote: post #218

jcstk wrote: post #132

I can appreciate this perspective because I used to have it. I even wrote a similar blog post 10 years ago - it was on the top of HN and the comment section was a beautiful shitshow. For me, this perspective was a good story to tell myself - it justified why I was only investing my time in “work”, and validated me for having “come so far”. Over time, I have reflected and shifted this perspective. That reflection cent…

Can’t you invalidate all social commentary with this argument? Surely there are trends in society that can be remarked on generally.

Your theory is that all social commentary is handwavey general remarks? If so, yes, let's invalidate it.

I think effective social commentary is mostly grounded in the personal, the specific, and the (thoughtfully) statistical. Otherwise it's very easy just to project one's biases onto a complicated picture. E.g., consider whatever it is that people think is "ruining the kids" these days. In the 1700s, you know what was ruining the kids? Novels: https://www.economist.com/1843/2020/01/20/an-18th-century-mo...

It's similar to how arguments about "what God wants" go wrong. Researchers showed that when people talk about what their god wants, they're unconsciously consulting their own preferences: https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/creating-god-i...

With broad social argument, it's easy to introduce all sorts of fallacy. Humans aren't really equipped to reason intuitively about things at this scale. Especially if the point is to persuade and/or entertain, simplifying into broad "logical" arguments can paint false pictures. Andrew Gelman wrote about this today: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2022/04/24/the-perils...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#492

Post by throwaway894345 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:27 PM UTC

dghlsakjg wrote: post #292

BurningFrog wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 100% sure you're not part of such a community. Neither am I, of course :) When polled, poor black people want more policing, despite also agreeing with much of the defunder critique. Knowing both options, they prefer flawed policing to being ruled by criminal gangs.

I’m affluent but grew up in an inner city. I NEVER had a positive experience with the police. Neutral was as good as it got. Wanting more policing and wanting to defund the current system are not oppositional. I want more cops doing shit that matters and less of the current police department.

I grew up in rural America and I would describe my experiences with police in the same terms. Of course, the purpose of policing is to deter crime, not give “positive experiences”. And thanks in large part to these luxury beliefs, police departments are doing less preventative policing (routine traffic stops, etc) especially in communities of color for fear of being the next Ferguson, and consequently violent crime is soaring all over the country.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#493

Post by philip1209 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:27 PM UTC

“Alienated children in the suburbs and bored housewives in the homes need to experience flow. If they cannot get it, they will find substitutes in the form of escape.”

Professor Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, in the book Beyond Boredom and Anxiety: Experiencing Flow in Work and Play

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#494

Post by CalRobert » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

I dunno, my own childhood improved massively when my parents bad marriage ended, and my relationship with both of my parents improved. You can be a responsible parent while not staying in an unhappy marriage.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#495

Post by dumb_troll » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

Maybe this is an idiotic thought so forgive me if that's the case.

Does it seem that a lot of this is "we hollowed out these areas for economic efficiency and then all the dudes (regardless of race...) became layabouts and drug addicts". I grew up in Kenya after the SAPs were imposed by the IMF and I vaguely remember complaints of alcoholism just spiking. I guess my dumb thought is maybe dudes just need to build, farm, or produce something tangible otherwise they become heroin addicts.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#496

Post by fullshark » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:28 PM UTC

AviationAtom wrote: post #486

fullshark wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said, what do you feel is the cause of a drain in motivation on the endemic level? It's a natural reaction to the fact that opportunities are shrinking in terms of quality and payoff. There are lots of "jobs" but they don't offer long term stability or growth.

On the flipside, most employees don't feel tied to an employer, even if the employer treats them well. Often many folks are chasing higher pay. I know in the cybersecurity realm quite a few folks are job hoppers, and right now employers are all to anxious to try to pick off talent from competitors. One of my former co-workers is now at their fifth job in five years, and each time they were chasing a higher paycheck.…

Blaming employers doesn't make sense, both sides are just responding to incentives. The labor regulations and macroeconomic choices our gov't have made are responsible imo, they've optimized for the wrong or incomplete metrics (Three biggest are GDP / unemployment % / stock market returns).

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#497

Post by amanaplanacanal » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

josephg wrote: post #175

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is true that there are people who actually do propose completely defunding police activity or abolishing the police, they are a tiny minority of those who took part in protests about police behavior towards non-white communities. It's so easy to make cheap digs about that handful of people instead of actually tackle the issues that this misnamed movement was/is really about. If it had actually been called "R…

I hear what you're saying, but words matter. I can never support a slogan I explicitly disagree with. There's plenty of better slogans out there. I'd support "end police violence" or "stop killer cops" or something. Thats certainly much more catchy than the full slogan right now, which seems to be "Defund the police, but we don't really want to do that, even though some people in our movement actually do want that, b…

This sounds very much like the critiques I heard of “black lives matter”. Wait, are you saying white lives don’t matter?

Where do these slogans come from? Are they designed by conservatives to make liberals look bad?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#498

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #437

coryrc wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that can be obtained even with low paying jobs Minimum wage workers can't afford rent anywhere in America. There's no stability to be found for low-paid workers. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/15/homes/rent-affordability-mini...

Its innumeracy propaganda. There are no minimum wage jobs where I live anymore, and I live in a lower cost of living area (not Manhattan or silicon valley, LOL). I'm not surprised no one can afford rent at $7/hr when no one can find a job paying $7/hr. Costco has a sign up paying $19/hr to empty trash cans and they can't hire people at that low of pay and the article claims its a tragedy that a middle tier single bed…

2% of hourly workers make federal minimum wage or lower according to BLS numbers. Many lower paying jobs (Walmart, McDonalds, etc) pay about $10 an hour. They generally don't provide benefits. So even if you get two jobs to fill a 40hr week, you're stuck with the medical costs. Good luck paying for housing and medical coverage (transportation, taxes, retirement, etc) at $20k per year in most areas. Hopefully you can get on assistance to help out.

There are a variety of issues and possible improvements to help the situation, not just the two you mentioned.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#499

Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:29 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #417

lyaa wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, in the US, the custody and house/apartment is almost always given to the parent who /wants/ the children. Men often don't fight for custody. They should. Also, the division of assets is not out of proportion I think. If I got married and my partner left the workforce to take care of the home/children, I do think they should get their fair share of assets in case of divorce.

> Men often don't fight for custody. In the cases where both do, majority custody is almost always given to the wife.

Do you have a study for this? When I researched it briefly years ago it seems when men ask for custody they often get exactly the custody they ask for, and the narrative they don’t is something largely spread by people who are either ignorant or men who were denied custody for heinous examples of abuse. Men simply ask for custody less or ask for less custody broadly.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#500

Post by filmgirlcw » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:30 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #326

lkey wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching and hearing about the family instability in these communities is heartbreaking. Half or more of everyone’s parents are divorced. The kids float around seeking stability and the adults can’t provide it. You seem to be attributing the cause of this to 'Telling men and boys it's cool and fine to divorce' and not attributing to say... declining material and social capitol in the lower four quintiles of wealth…

> Also, divorce sucks when kids are involved, I don't think anyone on earth, left or right, would dispute that. Tons of people dispute this. The thinking is that people staying married when they don’t want to stay married is worse for kids than people getting divorced and creating two separate households the kids float between. I don’t agree with this thinking, mostly because I’m the product of divorce that saw the a…

I don’t know how many people actually dispute that divorce sucks tho, even if they think that it is the preferable or better or even good outcome for a relationship.

Like, I don’t know anyone who argues that divorce is easy and fun and causes absolutely no issues for kids who are involved. What I do see people argue is that divorce can be a better outcome than staying together and being miserable.