No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#481

Post by geraldwhen » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

franciscop wrote: post #14

andrewclunn wrote: post #4

> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. Yep. If you were raised in poverty, the WORST thing you can do is listen to "approved" mainstream advice. That culture / media isn't there to help you, but to sell you things or make money on telling you what…

So I strongly disagree with that point, which could be based in cultures (specially in Spain where I have more experience seeing these things); I haven't seen enough of the mainstream USA advice, but for example I believe mainstream advice is still to get a degree in the USA, while if a degree costed $100k+ I believe in Spain it'd def not be mainstream advice and instead to tell people to strongly consider other alte…

The USA isn’t California. The median college graduating debt is 20-30k, not 100k.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by SamoyedFurFluff » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

temp3444 wrote: post #378

Longlius wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not merely expectations but intergenerational poverty. I get that you think that you came from a less privileged background than your in-laws and in some respects that's true, but even being able to immigrate to the US indicates a degree of social mobility that simply isn't available to the intergenerationally poor in rural America. These are people who grew up in places without anything to do, no training for h…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Simple, don't have 4 children.

Okay, but some people do, so what then? Fuck them and their 4 kids who did nothing wrong but be born?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by sandworm101 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

DeWilde wrote: post #416

sandworm101 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for those men lucky enough to have families. A growing issue is the large percentage of men who do not and will likely never have families to ever take care of. If we think deadbeat dads unstable, the incel community is a madhouse.

Is that really an issue? If you are a stable personality finding a mate isn't that much of an issue. Especially today with high mobility and dating apps if you put your back to it you can find a partner.

>> If you are a stable personality finding a mate isn't that much of an issue.

So those without mates are possibly not stable? Good luck finding a date if you work in an predominantly male area such as a northern mining town or military base. Good luck funding a mate if you are stuck in a bad job/career. Good luck funding a mate if you are stuck taking care of disabled/elderly family members. A stable personality guarantees nothing.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by onionisafruit » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

lkey wrote: post #277

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

> Watching and hearing about the family instability in these communities is heartbreaking. Half or more of everyone’s parents are divorced. The kids float around seeking stability and the adults can’t provide it. You seem to be attributing the cause of this to 'Telling men and boys it's cool and fine to divorce' and not attributing to say... declining material and social capitol in the lower four quintiles of wealth…

People tend to be absolutist about whether it’s better for kids if unhappy parents get divorced, but as the saying goes every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. Some marriages are hell for everybody involved and need to end. I put abuse situations in that category of course and also marriages that have so much animosity that they can’t stop fighting. On the other end of marriages that may end in divorce are situations where one partner gets wanderlust and doesn’t want to be tied down by a family or are disappointed that their lifestyle isn’t what they expected. In those cases it is probably best for the kids if the parents learn to be happy within the bounds of their family.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by s1artibartfast » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #303

s1artibartfast wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny part about expectations is they don't have to match reality to have an impact. If you raise a child telling them they have no opportunity, their chance of success is quite low.

That may work for a single generation. And the child soon grows up and meets reality. We are in a situation that has been developing for multiple generations Edit: I agree with the replies and I’m not one for shirking personal responsibility to change your lot in life, nor not instilling an eye for opportunity in children. We are at a point where more may be necessary

No Solution to this massive multigenerational problem involves teaching children to not try and give up.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by AviationAtom » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

fullshark wrote: post #395

deebosong wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not that young, but not old enough to have witnessed generational patterns of young men shifting as a cultural phenom. That being said, what do you feel is the cause of a drain in motivation on the endemic level? For some reason my gut reaction is to think that it's the outsourcing of jobs to other countries, and wages stagnating while prices go up. And then couple that with social media, of the life we're all to…

> That being said, what do you feel is the cause of a drain in motivation on the endemic level? It's a natural reaction to the fact that opportunities are shrinking in terms of quality and payoff. There are lots of "jobs" but they don't offer long term stability or growth.

On the flipside, most employees don't feel tied to an employer, even if the employer treats them well. Often many folks are chasing higher pay. I know in the cybersecurity realm quite a few folks are job hoppers, and right now employers are all to anxious to try to pick off talent from competitors. One of my former co-workers is now at their fifth job in five years, and each time they were chasing a higher paycheck. In my field they don't seek a pay raise at their current employer, they get it in writing on an offer from a recruiter at their next employer.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#487

Post by dumpsterlid » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #425

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

This seems like a lot of misplaced and irrelevant moralizing. Even in this article it is reported that men find little opportunity in labor markets that leave them with low pay and low respect. If low end jobs paid enough to support a family and might lead to higher pay over time then the situation would be different. Blaming this situation on expectations doesn't make sense when the labor market is clearly both crit…

> Working class pay has steadily fallen for decades and economic mobility is near zero.

Exactly, so long as this is true, every other discussion about the economics of the working class is a distraction from this

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by jayd16 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

InTheArena wrote: post #129

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.

This is the flip side of the “take trump seriously, not literally” argument that went around trying to normalize him in the last election. There are people who absolutely Believe that any police force is a slave enforcement force (or derived from one) and a tool of white tool to subjugate others. To them it must be eradicated.

In both cases, that's easily solved by actually considering the content of popular proposals instead of imagining what the proposals _might_ be.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#489

Post by s1artibartfast » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #408

DeWilde wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still better to instill expectations even if opportunity currently does not exist. If it arises one day that person will do better.

Until then they'll be crushed and/or feel lied to.

Is it really better to never try than risk disappointment?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by VLM » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 3:26 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #401

lolinder wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But people also just give up if they're constantly told that all the opportunities are gone, whether or not it's true. If you combine "there are no opportunities for me" with "there are no expectations for me", you get "I'll do nothing".

Even if you have expectations, many opportunities may be gone. Just look at the lack of non-college work in the US that pays a living wage. Now try to get one of those jobs if you're competing against others who have no criminal history if you have a minor one. I have a job as a dev and even I'm tired of this treadmill. Taxes, COL, healthcare, etc. No time/money to do the things I want. No real career, just a job. Li…

> Just look at the lack of non-college work in the US that pays a living wage.

A problem that doesn't exist. Plenty of that work out there.

Try to get a custom 3-phase power line run in the datacenter. Average age of electricians is about 55 around here. Nobody goes into the trades because the trades will "destroy your body before you're 35" yet all the thin healthy tradesmen around here are mid-50s boomers. Hmm. The union local total compensation package for mere journeymen is a hair over $65/hr because of mandatory health care and retirement extras that most people can only dream of, but even the takehome pay alone is still over $45/hr. On one hand that's only about twice what you'd get for emptying trash cans at Costco. On the other hand, you don't have to empty trash cans at costco AND you get a cooler more interesting job. Either way that power line isn't going to install itself.

The real mystery is all it takes to be an electrician is ambition, low time preference, agency, self discipline, motivation, concentration and study, and especially staying away from drugs, so how do you find people like that in a culture that glorifies the opposite and vilifies those values? Well, you don't ... thus they end up very unsuccessful in life and my power line ends up not installed.

If doing what you are told leaves you unsuccessful, maybe time to start distrusting those people when they give life advice. That's going to be the real turmoil and rebellion point in the next decade. "We were promised all our lives that self destructive behavior and self destructive beliefs would lead to a pleasant mirage."