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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

451–460 of 1001 posts

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#451
This article is failing to see a fundamental distinction in spousal relations between "now" (present era) and "then" (pre-1970s): economic dependency between women and men.

On the whole, if you mothered children in the pre-feminist era, and you didn't have a spouse... you and your children could starve. Because there was very little space carved out in our society for women to work. And under the cover of that asymmetry of power men got away with all sorts of abuses.

Yes, the family may have stuck together. And there was a defined and potentially socially responsible role for men in this context: provider and economic glue and source of authority for the family. But at what cost? Spousal and child abuse rates were sky high, though they may not have even been perceived as such at the time. They were just part of the normal authoritarian structure of the family.

Have young men suffered from the changes that have come along with women obtaining additional powers and the bonds of the nuclear family becoming less strong? Quite possibly. But we also have to accept that what was holding that together was also potentially toxic.

Put another way: In general -- over the last 200 years -- capitalist market relations have severed many traditional bonds and obligations. The primary obligation of an adult individual, in our liberal capitalist society, is as a wage labourer, an economic contributor. On the whole people "are" what they "do" (for $$).

The family structure has always been a mix of authoritarian bonds and genuine warmth, material obligations, etc. I think we're still figuring out what its new form will be. It may be that in our neo-liberal hyper-capitalist present society that there are contradictions here we cannot resolve.

Marx/Engels thought so, anyways, check out this paragraph from the Communist Manifesto:

"On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution. "

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least it has a track record of creating coherent, functioning civilization the world over since time immemorial. Can’t say whatever we have today looks all that compelling, and I say this as a “winner” with a high salary, owned home, wife, and children. I think of a future beyond my ability to retire to Margaritaville. What future lies for my daughters and sons? A hedonist utopia that denigrates and denies the mos…

"Functioning" is a word for it, I guess. I really don't think I'd describe a system where 50% of the population has basically zero rights to be "functioning."

A surprising number of people in the 50% who get extra privileges seem fine with it.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans. I read a book [1] that argued the upper middle class follows very traditional values (two-parent families, marrying before having children, having at least one adult working 40 hours a week) but doesn't really advocate for those traditional values. People in the upper middle class will praise the bravery of single mothers and s…

There is a stigma in pushing stable values. In a very real sense, it’s created by a media environment that eschews non-progressive (it’s not liberal - at least in the USA) family structures. Let’s face it, Homer Simpson is the face of traditional American family structures.

When I was in my twenties, I thought having a family before you were in your thirties meant you were kinda dumb. That’s what people who didn’t have ambitions did.

Fast forward to now and it is one of my very few regrets. I have three kids, but wish I would have started in my twenties and prioritized family more.

When I was in my twenties, the homer Simpsons of the world were idiots. In my thirties, they were the ones who got it right.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#454
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is sunday morning. I'm at work (military). Part of that job is checking in with people at a half-dozen other locations who are also at work on a sunday morning. they just happen to all be hetero guys, which is not unusual in the military no matter the day. So I asked in our chat whether they had wives/girlfriends at home today. "No." "Nope." "My car is my GF" and "Rocking a peppi shirt under my uniform". These are…

Peppi shirt?

The peppi (sorry, "pepe") le frog meme has become associated with the alt-right generally but the incel community specifically. I doubt he meant that he was literally wearing one as that would be a huge problem in our military. I take his statement to mean that he understands the question and its implication.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men." Those only really work if the opportunities are there for the person to succeed. If you have no hope of success, then people just give up.

>If you have no hope of success, then people just give up. Success doesn't come from hope. It comes from hard work and fighting every day for something better. Luck might help, but is neither required nor enough for success. I was from a poor background and fighting for a better future was the only thing that brought me some kind of success.

It depends on the circumstance. I'm also from a poor background in a third world country (so super poor by Western standards), and although I did work both very hard and very smart, if I had not moved to a first world country there's no way I would have achieved much. Sometimes your environment can make it that hopeless, and I've seen it in many of the younger people back in my home country now. They've essentially just "checked out" of society, which leads to higher crime and unemployment overall.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"luxury beliefs" feels to me like the right found a way to say "privilege" without actually saying it, haha.

This isn’t the burn you intend. Henderson is talking about wealth/status privilege while the left uses “privilege” as a shorthand for racial or gender privilege. Henderson is clearly not ceding that point here (implicitly or otherwise).

I don't think the left thinks of privilege solely as racial or gender privilege. Here's an article on "everydayfeminism.com" about the broad view progressives take on it: https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/income-vs-wealth/

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#457
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are certainly causal explanations for the data, but once those phenomena are here they impact people's expectations. Change in expectations is clearly what the author is focusing on. For example, the emergence of the rust belt leaves a lot of unemployed men - the impacted parts of society won't continue to expect the same work ethic and commitment from their men 40-50 years later.

As in, "In the past young men could look to the example of their fathers, who had well-paid automotive manufacturing / steel mill / electronics assembly jobs that allowed them to care for their families and even put a downpayment on a small home, but now they have no such examples and no such expectations of moving into that kind of position at adulthood." Okay, that's an expectation issue. Why is the author ignoring…

From what I've seen, there's an entire industry of conservative economists Like Arthur Laffer and Larry Kudlow (to name a mere two, there are entire billionaire funded thinktanks like AEI dedicated to this) to deny the reality of the issues you mention, not unlike scientists paid to deny Climate Change or Tobacco's cancer links. And because of this, conservatives don't even believe that such issues exist.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#458
post #42
post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

You’re defending one luxury belief (“defund the police”) with another (“the black experience with police is exclusively one of victimhood”). Notably, your “backlash” includes 81% of black Americans according to Gallup.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#459
Here's the most important part:

> 3. The upper class, who wants to keep you mired in it

I cannot stress enough how much division and polarization is driven by the wealthy who have a vested interest in sowing discord among the lower classes.

The truth of the matter is that you, as a lower-income white person, have way more in common with a lower-income black person than a wealthy white person. Yet the amount of people who will vehemently oppose the very idea that the likes of Jezz Bezos and 8 other people pay slightly more taxes is mind-boggling.

Republican-controlled state legislatures are busy passing laws to create wedge issues against trans people, gay people, womens' reproductive rights and so on. And it's nothing more than a method of control, of whipping up the base with issues most of the country actually doesn't care about.

I really wish people were better at recognizing this manipulation as we've now progressed to the point where the #1 "news" show in the US is spreading straight up Nazi propaganda [1]. I don't mean that as a perjorative. It is quite literally Nazi propaganda.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGb748VOcYU

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#460
post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

Giving birth to a baby without being married is a religious point of view. I am supposed to believe that a "sociology professor at Princeton, and Kefalas, a sociology professor at St. Joseph’s University" can somehow convince me that he knows what a "low-income woman" thinks or does in her life. I've lived around "low-income women" my whole life and I haven't figured it out. "The conventional view is that a lack of m…

> This link outright proves there are not 10 million men unemployed in America. https://www.statista.com/statistics/193244/unemployment-leve... So who's statistics are right?

Both of them are right, this is a common confusion in unemployment statistics. Unemployment as a technical term refers to people who both don't have a job and are "in the workforce", meaning they gave the right answers for the survey taker to conclude they're looking for a job. People who aren't trying to find a job are "out of the workforce" but not "unemployed".

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