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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#351

Post by ipaddr »

fineIllregister wrote: post #230
InTheArena wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a stigma in pushing stable values. In a very real sense, it’s created by a media environment that eschews non-progressive (it’s not liberal - at least in the USA) family structures. Let’s face it, Homer Simpson is the face of traditional American family structures.

> Homer Simpson is the face of traditional American family structures. The life available to Homer Simpson included a skilled job that he could obtain without a college degree (and also while being an idiot). He was able to purchase a four bedroom home in the community he grew up in and provide for his wife and three children on that one income. That was the norm, now it's practically gone. The lack of accessible eco…

So was Al Bundy or Dan Conner from Roseanne.

The great reset theory many were down playing might be coming true where people don't own anything they rent everything from society

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#352

Post by Longlius »

igetspam wrote: post #252
t0suj4 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've heard the problem are divorce courts granting women nearly everything. That rigs the game against dads. Marriage is a huge liability. Men are gambling with nearly all their lives on their partner's unwillingness into a divorce. On the other hand I've heard rumors where therapists were suggesting divorce to married women. I don't know how widespread that is but maybe something worth looking into.

Does it though? In a typical marriage, one side goes to work and the other stays home. The one who stays home has a pretty stale resume during the years kids can't be in school and they often don't make it back to the workforce at all. This is a decision that's usually agreed to because the long term plan is to stay together and this is the agreed upon model for load distribution. Then comes divorce. The party that h…

>Does it though? In a typical marriage, one side goes to work and the other stays home.

This is flat out incorrect. More than 2/3rds of married mothers in the US work.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#353

Post by coryrc »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #284
giantg2 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men." Those only really work if the opportunities are there for the person to succeed. If you have no hope of success, then people just give up.

I think it actually means redefining success. Today, success means having disposable income, but that's not the success that children need. They need stable households, and that can be obtained even with low paying jobs, though obviously it's easier with high paying jobs. But it's impossible if the will to work isn't there, and the only way to get that will is to instill a good work ethic and proper, family-oriented…

> that can be obtained even with low paying jobs

Minimum wage workers can't afford rent anywhere in America. There's no stability to be found for low-paid workers.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/15/homes/rent-affordability-mini...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#354

Post by Multicomp »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #269
deebosong wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not that young, but not old enough to have witnessed generational patterns of young men shifting as a cultural phenom. That being said, what do you feel is the cause of a drain in motivation on the endemic level? For some reason my gut reaction is to think that it's the outsourcing of jobs to other countries, and wages stagnating while prices go up. And then couple that with social media, of the life we're all to…

These young men aren’t getting weekly messages of hope like >80% were 60 years ago. Those that are are more likely flourishing according to all the pew research.

If by weekly messages of hope you mean going to church regularly on Sundays*, that's an interesting point I hadn't considered in this context before.

Can you provide a citation for the pew research on the weekly messages of hope, whether my above inference was correct or not? If it's not Sunday services at church, I'd love to know what else I can do inject some hope into my weeks.

* or whatever is the holy day in a given church congregation.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#355

Post by xwolfi »

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

I think you're wrong. I'm French so my "social conservative christian" parents still taught me to roll cigarets, that abortions saved young girls' future and that you shouldn't beat your wife if she wants a divorce, which is for me american "social liberalism".

The way I see rigidity is to associate set roles to women, beating the gayness out of gays or shunning you for marrying out of your parents' religion. What you describe is complete laxism, maybe not telling men that they do have to own up their decisions, especially raising children that even someone like my dad did, despite being more flexible maybe than your parents ?

And I'm socially liberal in the sense I married a Chinese and raise my daughter telling her mariage is not the only goal in life, that if she's gay it won't matter, and that religion is BS, but I still expect her to raise her kids properly if she has some... so I'm not sure your parents raised you well because they were rigid or simply because they were good honest people... which even the liberals you dislike could also be !

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#356

Post by BurningFrog »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #292
BurningFrog wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 100% sure you're not part of such a community. Neither am I, of course :) When polled, poor black people want more policing, despite also agreeing with much of the defunder critique. Knowing both options, they prefer flawed policing to being ruled by criminal gangs.

I’m affluent but grew up in an inner city. I NEVER had a positive experience with the police. Neutral was as good as it got. Wanting more policing and wanting to defund the current system are not oppositional. I want more cops doing shit that matters and less of the current police department.

You prefer the third option of a much improved police force. I would love that too.

But this is not a practical real world option. In the present, you fight crime with the police system you have.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#357

Post by gumby »

Aunche wrote: post #199
dijit wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on what you’re aiming for, socio-economically. If you want billionaires then the US model is much more successful. If you want a wide middle class then the Swedish model is more successful. If you want happiness then the Danish model is more successful. If you want to eliminate poverty then the Finnish model is more successful.

It's disingenuous to compare a country with another country with 1/30th the size. Otherwise, you'd come to the conclusion that Sweden would be better off as a tax haven like Luxembourg. Massachusetts matches the Nordic nations by most metrics, and blows them out of the water in terms of median income.

I cannot disagree with what you stated, but your last sentence misses the point.

Incomes are nominally higher in Massachusetts and costs for certain staples (energy, food, automobile) are nominally lower, compared to Western Europe. Yet I can’t say the outcome is better (note I have lived in France, Germany and Massachusetts).

The fact is life is more precarious in MA: it appears that you have more disposable income but crucial things like health care (perhaps best in USA), school (crucial for keeping your head above water) and such means you spend more of your time and money looking after your life and less actually living it.

You can see this in the numbers, too: not just life expectancy but in things like money available (and spent) on vacations and other leisure, reported levels of stress and debt.

I’m not trying to claim that any country is some sort of utopia. My root comment was simply that the analysis of the post we are discussing was simplistic and ignored confounding examples of countries with the claimed “bad” things doing better by their citizens.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#358

Post by ibejoeb »

ss108 wrote: post #97
rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

"This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability." As someone both from a somewhat conservative immigrant background who is basically a coastal elite type myself, I think that statement is not particularly accurate or insightful. My main point of contention is that l…

> Absurd to blame the "educated and affluent" for lower-class abandonment of their own cultural values.

The author isn't blaming the elite for the trend. In fact, he acknowledges that it has impacted all strata, even though the impact is greater at the lower end. What he's saying is that family stability is no longer a universal value. The thesis is that the elite set the fashion. He writes:

"Those who sit at or near the apex of the social ladder (who decide what behaviors are prestigious) have decided that family stability is unimportant."

When you say that "low-income whites tend not to care for what the highly-educated and affluent think," there may be something to that at some level, but I think these are trivial levels. The elite make the laws and rules and systems, and we all live with those. I think that is beside the point, though. It's not that the elites are saying, "Start a family and stick with it," and therefor everyone else is acting out in protest; it's that the elites are not saying it.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#359

Post by awillen »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #285
giantg2 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The article is right on the mark talking about the importance of social expectations for men." Those only really work if the opportunities are there for the person to succeed. If you have no hope of success, then people just give up.

The funny part about expectations is they don't have to match reality to have an impact. If you raise a child telling them they have no opportunity, their chance of success is quite low.

That only works in one direction though. If opportunity doesn't exist, it doesn't matter if you set expectations that it does.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#360

Post by [deleted] »

AvocadoPanic wrote: post #330
toomuchtodo wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a reasonable course of action, of course, but also respect the DINKs who look at having kids and go “no thanks” and continue jetting off to the Alps, Turks and Caicos, or whatever. Having kids is an opportunity cost, and there’s a lot of life enjoyment to be had if you don’t have them. Kids were previously an asset a century ago, now they’re a luxury good.

Sure r/childfree has lots of this sort. They often seem a bit too into being childfree to me, I probably wouldn't like their shitty kids anyway. There's an opportunity cost for most life decisions. Sometimes they're obscured. It's often not presented this way but for a cohort of women university and work, displaces marriage and children.

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