No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by floodle » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #57

blinkingled wrote: post #48

> basic general principle that men will do whatever is required in order to obtain sex, and perhaps not a great deal more. (One of us characterized this in a previous work as, ‘If women would stop sleeping with jerks, men would stop being jerks.’) This makes it sound like it is just men who need sex and have to do things to get it. One would think that everybody needs sex and thus women need it too. And it would stan…

But do women have to do things to get sex? Not high-quality, eligible-bachelor sex, but just sex in general?

I think the typical lens is that women are trying to avoid the costs associated with casual sex. Traditionally women paid the lion's share of costs: shame, isolation, the financial and physical burdens of an unwanted child, etc.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by nyolfen » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

mediumiqsad wrote: post #100

michaelt wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans. I read a book [1] that argued the upper middle class follows very traditional values (two-parent families, marrying before having children, having at least one adult working 40 hours a week) but doesn't really advocate for those traditional values. People in the upper middle class will praise the bravery of single mothers and s…

Probably because single motherhood is generally not a choice made willingly. There isn't any hypocrisy here, they don't endorse single motherhood because it's fashionable they "endorse" it because the alternative is worse.

they endorse it in order to reduce stigma; but reduced stigma leads to greater prevalence

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by HomeGear » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:44 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #52

pydry wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

Counterpoint: it’s easy to support abolishing the police, when a clogged milk foamer is the biggest threat to your personal safety. Live in a wonderful sheltered community, say ”I don’t see why we would need law enforcement”

“Defund the Police” was not an attempt at abolishing police. However, I do understand there are outlets that positioned it as such to gain emotional investment. The idea was to reallocate some of the police budget to mental health experts. The idea behind that idea is that we’d had better outcomes if mental health experts helped those having a breakdown (suicide attempt, etc) than armed police.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by dgfitz » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:44 PM UTC

knicholes wrote: post #270

bredren wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they play video games?

While an answer in the affirmative would tickle your confirmation bias activations, I'll counter with my anecdote that I play "video games" and have been happily married for 13 years and have two kids.

3 kids here and I’m tickled pink that I just landed a PS5, married 9 years.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by softcactus » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:44 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #210

pydry wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

I'm 100% sure you're not part of such a community. Neither am I, of course :) When polled, poor black people want more policing, despite also agreeing with much of the defunder critique. Knowing both options, they prefer flawed policing to being ruled by criminal gangs.

I have heard this cited numerous times, but have never seen an actual source.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by FridgeSeal » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:44 PM UTC

fnqra wrote: post #282

Ensorceled wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The political window has shifted further and further left in recent years. As an outside observer, I'm Canadian, this viewpoint of many Americans that their politics has shifted "left" is flabbergasting. The SC has definitely shifted hard right and Roe v. Wade is essentially overturned, or being, overturned in many states. "Don't say gay" and other anti LGBQT+ laws are being passed. I feel you are using a very "tru…

Quoted post unavailable.

> it reverts to the centrist opinion of the 1990s/2000s

I don’t know, sort of feels like we’ve largely moved on from the centrist opinions of the turn of the millennium. You’d get the half-shame branding of “metrosexual” for dressing better than average or liking things marginally off the mainline of masculinity, wasn’t exactly a particularly supportive attitude back then.

> Brigaded in less than a minute. Well done, LGBTQIA+ KGB.

Not exactly doing yourself any favours here. Behaving like this makes your point get lost in the emotional hysteria of your reaction.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:44 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

[deleted]

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by DeathArrow » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

mountainriver wrote: post #296

lolinder wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But people also just give up if they're constantly told that all the opportunities are gone, whether or not it's true. If you combine "there are no opportunities for me" with "there are no expectations for me", you get "I'll do nothing".

Yes, opportunity is a belief, in reality there are plenty of opportunities, it takes imagination and hope

It takes imagination and determination. Finding the windows when the doors are closed. Not giving up on failures.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by BlargMcLarg » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

meken wrote: post #171

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men who DGAF aren't the same as "incels". You and GP aren't at odds with one another. And yes, it is somewhat ironic society is making the exact same mistakes it has before: forgetting how destructive a large population of uninterested young men is towards society, without ever having to be violent.

Could you say more about this? What historical events are you referring to? I consider myself a disaffected male, and am curious to understand my situation from a historical perspective.

Look up the societal collapse of Rome in particular. It's one of the most named and covered anecdotes. A few other societies follow similar patterns, internally collapsing and being taken apart piece by piece rather than aggressively overtaken. Wikipedia[0] names several societies (I don't keep sources at hand to my own discredit).

It all has to do with incentives and the role of men in societies which to some degree still apply today. Stop giving men incentives to have families or any other reason to care about younger generations, and they stop having a reason to care for the future. Don't give them an incentive to care about the now (wives, partners, comrades), and they stop having a reason to care about the now.

Not having people care for the future is a great way to make them live their lives as short-sighted and hedonistic* as possible, which further affects their reason to care about the now beyond themselves. Not having people care for the now is a great way to incentivize inner conflict and have a party rise to fill the gap.

*: Hedonism on its own has a whole slew of other problems I'd rather not get into detail with, but for the sake of comparison, online dating apps' meat market approach hasn't exactly helped younger people obtain more satisfying relationships.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse#Examples_of_...

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

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Post by franciscop » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

AvocadoPanic wrote: post #61

franciscop wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I strongly disagree with that point, which could be based in cultures (specially in Spain where I have more experience seeing these things); I haven't seen enough of the mainstream USA advice, but for example I believe mainstream advice is still to get a degree in the USA, while if a degree costed $100k+ I believe in Spain it'd def not be mainstream advice and instead to tell people to strongly consider other alte…

r/personalfinance is largely fine if you've made it that far. I read the comment you replied to to be the, follow your passion, university is required, lean-in, girl-boss, live your dream, it takes a village, shitty advice that permeates culture in the US. The messaging that children out of wedlock is pro-poverty and marriage is anti-poverty is nearly non-existant in the main stream. Same with the negative outcomes o…

Okay University required is the one I knew in the US that should be controversial but is not too much yet.

Follow your passion seems to be similar to live your dream, and I can see that being terrible advice for young lower-class. This is AFAIK only a path encouraged for rich kids in Spain and only to certain extent, since they will inherit whatever. But probably due to chronic young unemployment, our society highly critical to studying degrees without good opportunities. Ironically the only places I've seen this in Spain as advice from high class to everyone is where we've strongly imported USA culture, among "modern entrepreneurs".

Had never heard of "girl-boss" nor "it takes a village" as financial advice! Reading about girl-boss [1], I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong!) it's about empowerment and not taking a "normal" job and instead try to be your own boss, specially aimed at young women. Which is great if you are upper class and can fall back to your family for help, but obviously a terrible idea if you don't have a plan-b/good fallback, resulting in poverty. Right?

And about "it takes a village"? I cannot find much relevant info, everything seems to be about getting help from your community. Does it mean that it's great advice if you are surrounded by successful driven people, but bad advice if the community is a poor one riffled with crime?

Sorry for so many questions, most are confirmations to make sure I understood things correctly

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlboss