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No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

robkhenderson.substack.com

201–210 of 1001 posts

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#201
post #50
post #19

It’s interesting to read these (plausible, far from absurd) analyses from the Anglosphere when we have an alternative to compare, to whit the northern European democracies where marriage is in steep decline across all social classes yet the societies are more successful (at least if your metrics are things like poverty rates, lifetimes, nutrition, stress, etc).

First off the article says nothing about marriage it speaks of “two parent households”, so an unmarried couple raising kids would fit the author’s thesis entirely. Second, pretty sure I’d argue the recent riots in Sweden would back up exactly the author’s theory around poorly behaved young males. But hey, your nutritional rate is high!

The article repeatedly talks about marriage.

From the article, a quote: even those who cohabit, believe that as long as they are not married, it is acceptable for either partner to walk away at any time, and for virtually any reason.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#202

A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate. Having children out of wedlock is a safety valve for broken institutions that keeps the birth rate higher in the US than comparable countries; that plus relatively open integration helps us maintain our economy, welfare state, pensions, etc. If we turned the screws on women and men to di…

It is news to me that Italy "enforces" traditional values.

Possibly there is still is in some (few) very religious circles/groups some stigmatizing of the breaking of marriage, but that's all.

Otherwise we have divorce (since 1970) and also (only more recently, 2016) a number of legal provisions for unmarried couples (that give to the partners some rights under the Law), called "unione civile" (civil union) that is open to both hetero and same sex partners.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#203
Wow, lots of controversial things in here.

"You put a guy in chaotic and impoverished circumstances. And then you decide not to expect anything out of him. How can anyone possibly believe this will lead to anything other than disaster?"

I think the author has neglected a hugely important factor in this. Sure, what others expect of you can influence you greatly. But what one expects for themselves is a huge factor too. This self expectation can be largely driven by what opportunities one perceives to be available to them. Some of those perceptions are influenced by others, like teachers or parents exposing the child to a possible career path. Others are what the see their peers and slightly older group doing. Among this vein...

How hard is it to get a decent job today if you have a criminal record, even a minor one, vs in the 1970s?

How have real wages trended since the 70s?

Where have the high paying (relative to working fast food, etc) manufacturing jobs gone? How many jobs require expensive college degrees now?

Enlisting used to be a widely available option. How about now? I believe it's much more selective about who they take.

It might not be that young men are expected to do nothing. It might be that society has created a system in which it is hard for young men to do anything. If you have a lack of hope because the deck is stacked against you and none of your peers are making anything of themselves, then why wouldn't most people give up? Lack of hope and reduction in meaningful opportunity is a huge problem. There are many factors behind these. But the author doesn't seem to touch on any of them.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#204
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

Does that poll support your argument? Spending and funding isn't directly correlated with "spending time". Chicago spends almost two billion dollars each year on police. Yet it's often cited as one of the most dangerous cities. I'm sure plenty of folks in Chicago's South side would love more patrols. Is the right way to go about that really to keep throwing money at a system which appears to be squandering the funds?…

The idea of "funding" is just a rough proxy for what people really want (or don't): more police presence. Garden-variety "defund the police" advocates think that, due to police violence, bias, and so on, the police should be a smaller part of how we address crime. The people in areas affected heavily by crime think that the police should be _more_ involved. That's the disagreement.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#205
>Norms were loosened around being an absentee father. So more men took the option.

I'm afraid that the author got it wrong. All social norms were destroyed between 1950's and now. If society desires hard working, law abiding, family loving young men, it should rebuild what it destroyed.

The only interesting point in the story was about that "expert" which publicly behaves how society coerces her now to behave but secretly raises her own children in a way that she deems better for their well-being but comes into contradiction with the norms of the day.

So yes, trying to destroy family, religion, men self esteem and purpose in life, by creating a hedonistic society with no morals will prove a disaster for Western society. A disaster which if extended for long will equate to suicide.

I wouldn't blame young men but those evil people who continuously waged war on Western civilization and tried to demolish everything good while promising freedom, justice, equality. Freedom, justice and equality nobody got.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#206
At first you had extended families as norm and that was a huge safety net. Then even with nuclear family, the wages people earned were enough for one to manage by themselves, even without the wife working (if she did, ever better). Now there is little familial safety net, wages for low-paying jobs are all-time low, people are doing 2-3 jobs to survive, stress-levels are all time high, no body wants to have a conversation and is ready to walk at a moment's notice and the root cause of the broken family is that poor people are following upper class's example? Sure, why not.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#207
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on what you’re aiming for, socio-economically. If you want billionaires then the US model is much more successful. If you want a wide middle class then the Swedish model is more successful. If you want happiness then the Danish model is more successful. If you want to eliminate poverty then the Finnish model is more successful.

Sweden and Norway have more billionaires per capita than the US does.

True, but I'm not sure that per capita matters so much. The USA has only about 5% of the world's people, but nearly 30% of the world's billionaires. That's a very large share (and nearly 1.5x as large as the next largest, China, with around 3x the population).

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#208

The article cites an anecdote about a young father who sat around the house arguing, fighting and drinking. He ends up getting kicked out of the house. The 1960s version of this story instead ends with the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions. Which is preferable?

> the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions Families were much bigger back then. The extended family was always around. Communities were much tighter and actually existed. I think you don't have a good understanding of those times if you think women could be beaten around without repercussions, and honestly, thinking women are so helpless smells of sexism.

I would argue that you are overestimating the help women used to get from extended families in terms of protection from abuse. That kind of life came along with rigid societal expectations, extremely limited economic opportunities for women, and harsh views on divorce.

Many cultures around the world still have such communities and they are worse on average for women.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#209
post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

> America so thoroughly that the head of the “conservative” party is a three-times-divorced man of little character.

I think that’s an interesting point. The political window has shifted further and further left in recent years. The fact is he’s not the head of the conservative moment, he’s the head of the Republican Party. There are differing factions and he promised something most in the party could support. For example, he supported states rights during the pandemic and didn’t use force. Similarly, the focus was domestic production and an improved foreign policy. Finally, there was a decent support of policies for the working class.

I’m not personally for the man, but I can see why there was support. It’s the most conservative president in decades by most measurements, though not personal life.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#210
post #42
post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

I'm 100% sure you're not part of such a community. Neither am I, of course :)

When polled, poor black people want more policing, despite also agreeing with much of the defunder critique.

Knowing both options, they prefer flawed policing to being ruled by criminal gangs.

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