No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#181

Post by johnny53169 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

walkhour wrote: post #136

karpierz wrote: post #72

The article cites an anecdote about a young father who sat around the house arguing, fighting and drinking. He ends up getting kicked out of the house. The 1960s version of this story instead ends with the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions. Which is preferable?

> the husband beating his wife behind closed doors without repercussions Families were much bigger back then. The extended family was always around. Communities were much tighter and actually existed. I think you don't have a good understanding of those times if you think women could be beaten around without repercussions, and honestly, thinking women are so helpless smells of sexism.

Are you seriously trying to argue there was less domestic violence back then?

Extended family can help, but they can just as well think you deserved it or turn a blind eye.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#182

Post by dijit » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

mediumiqsad wrote: post #106

poszlem wrote: post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

Rob went to Yale. He's literally a luxury columnist.

Where did this idea come from that we cannot see what exists outside of ourselves and our experiences?

I can empathise with people who are nothing like me. I can understand silly things that people like me do, and how they must look to people who are not like me.

It is only infant humans that can’t understand that anything exists outside of themselves.

Are we all infants?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#183

Post by pclmulqdq » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

kevinventullo wrote: post #66

refurb wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They undermine it by: - claiming a single parent household is no worse for children than a two parent household - claiming men have no particular importance in the raising of children - financially supporting (in some cases subsidizing) single parent families

Do they? I can see the third bullet in practice, although I think it’s more of a fix than a cause for single-parent homes. On the other hand, my social circle is highly educated and well-off and I’m not sure I know a single person who would agree with the first bullet. The second point I’m less clear on myself: is there evidence that children of lesbian couples are somehow worse off?

The third bullet here is basic economics. When you create demand for a product by subsidizing it, people will create supply.

Practically, these subsidies mean that poorer women who could marry the father of their children will often choose not to because they are getting money from the government that exceeds what the man can bring in. It is a little bit like the effect of a very high minimum wage: it helps a certain group of people, but prices many others out of the market. Each step of the process is a perfectly rational economic decision, and it completely destabilizes the home.

I have witnessed this firsthand with some of my relatives, who unfortunately behaved exactly as the microeconomics predicted. They had children out of wedlock, wanting to get married but also wanting to keep their benefits, and then ended up separating because the man's attempt to work like a dog to provide more than the government burned him out (he actually wanted to get married and do the right thing).

Edit: I also want to add that I'm pretty sure the second point here is not true. Lesbian and gay two-parent households don't seem to have worse outcomes than heterosexual couples.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#184

Post by mc32 » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

idontknowifican wrote: post #87

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

when you have kids for no reason, they know they’re here for no reason, and it’s a formula for a disaffected person. i don’t know if expectations being set because of being a man makes any sense, but i firmly believe you must have goals and morals. i think we spend a lot of time struggling with the roles we’re assigned. no for any deep reason, it’s just work and people tend to hate it. i think it comes down to the in…

Previously people who bore kids but didn’t plan on it were peer pressured by society to carry their water and take responsibility and support them to some degree. Divorced parents faced significant pushback.

These days, at least it seems, without this social pressure people feel free to leave more readily before giving raising their family a greater priority. The priority is their convenience and not the new generation. Also people just don’t apply this social pressure on their peers so much, so there is less consideration when seeking divorce or plain abandonment.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#185

Post by Taywee » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #85

nikanj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: it’s easy to support abolishing the police, when a clogged milk foamer is the biggest threat to your personal safety. Live in a wonderful sheltered community, say ”I don’t see why we would need law enforcement”

While it is true that there are people who actually do propose completely defunding police activity or abolishing the police, they are a tiny minority of those who took part in protests about police behavior towards non-white communities. It's so easy to make cheap digs about that handful of people instead of actually tackle the issues that this misnamed movement was/is really about. If it had actually been called "R…

> If it had actually been called "Redirect substantive parts of the funding currently going to the police to provide alternate mechanisms to address a variety of situations and crises", would you still find it appropriate to make jabs about the situation of some of those who supported it?

No, because that's a rational and reasonable statement, where "defund the police" grabs attention, but is ultimately divisive and alienating. Like so many popular talking points, it's a complete failure of marketing and communication, and everybody who says it ends up having to redefine or explain it on a constant basis because on the surface it sounds completely irrational.

Maybe it could have been more successful if the name actually reflected the goal. As-is, the supporters either actually believe in abolishing the police (which was also called for), or they are saying something they don't actually mean in a literal sense because it grabs more attention. The detractors in turn are only arguing with what a minority of the supporters actually even want, because we've grown so unconcerned as a society with actually conveying our points and getting people on our side, and more concerned with simply being noticed.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#186

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

mediumiqsad wrote: post #106

poszlem wrote: post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

Rob went to Yale. He's literally a luxury columnist.

[deleted]

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#187

Post by huffmsa » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #166

idontknowifican wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when you have kids for no reason, they know they’re here for no reason, and it’s a formula for a disaffected person. i don’t know if expectations being set because of being a man makes any sense, but i firmly believe you must have goals and morals. i think we spend a lot of time struggling with the roles we’re assigned. no for any deep reason, it’s just work and people tend to hate it. i think it comes down to the in…

> when you have kids for no reason, they know they’re here for no reason, and it’s a formula for a disaffected person. That does not make any sense. Most older generations did not choose to have children (certainly not as much as we do) and it did not result in generations being "disaffected". If anything that's exactly the opposite - we are the generation when we have full control of who gets born and there's never…

> Most older generations did not choose to have children

Birth control and family planning aren't a new invention.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#188

Post by kasey_junk » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #70

seibelj wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working." Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all. It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.

And it’s a particularly bad short slogan because it says something a) no one really believes and b) something that is particularly unpopular. Defund the police sets back the very things it’s trying to address.

Contrast that to “Black Lives Matter” or “We are the 99%” which are also short slogans that encapsulate the broad and varied beliefs of the respective movements without being off putting to even the people who agree.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#189

Post by d4mi3n » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

AvocadoPanic wrote: post #109

cebert wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is likely fine because our southern border is porous and anyone can walk right in. I don’t see any indication that this will change. The benefit is even if the US birth rate is declining, we have an influx of younger individuals who can help keep the economy going.

Except that the US will look and operate more and more like wherever these people came from.

Is this a bad thing? The US was founded by immigrants. Immigration, diversity, and the US’ history with these topics (good and bad) is huge part of the national cultural identity.

As a US citizen, I think as long as we can maintain the cornerstones of our national heritage (democratic traditions, constitutional freedoms, etc) it should be fine if things change to reflect the demographics of our population.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#190

Post by AvocadoPanic » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 2:04 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #103

Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

> How do they undermine the norm? They don't do this on purpose they are also just humans. I don’t think they do this on purpose; I think they’re well meaning and don’t “want to judge.” The problem is that social judgement is what creates signals for what’s good and bad and what’s worthy and unworthy; what has value and what doesn’t. And people respond to signals. Imagine that you’re just an average dude growing up i…

Military or a trade would be a better choice.