No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing • Hacker News Board

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#61

Post by AvocadoPanic » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

franciscop wrote: post #14

andrewclunn wrote: post #4

> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. Yep. If you were raised in poverty, the WORST thing you can do is listen to "approved" mainstream advice. That culture / media isn't there to help you, but to sell you things or make money on telling you what…

So I strongly disagree with that point, which could be based in cultures (specially in Spain where I have more experience seeing these things); I haven't seen enough of the mainstream USA advice, but for example I believe mainstream advice is still to get a degree in the USA, while if a degree costed $100k+ I believe in Spain it'd def not be mainstream advice and instead to tell people to strongly consider other alte…

r/personalfinance is largely fine if you've made it that far.

I read the comment you replied to to be the, follow your passion, university is required, lean-in, girl-boss, live your dream, it takes a village, shitty advice that permeates culture in the US.

The messaging that children out of wedlock is pro-poverty and marriage is anti-poverty is nearly non-existant in the main stream. Same with the negative outcomes of boys raised by single mothers.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#62

Post by tyronehed » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

What an amazing article, and bravo to the researchers for this amazing analysis.

Now, I will get onto my down voting. I have watched generations of men devote himself to video games. They develop amazing skills in these artificial worlds. At the same time, I was reading tons of books, writing a few of my own and generally avoiding TV and video game. Of course, I was the freak. But I cannot wonder if that life in the fantasy land a video game has not left its traces in these men.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#63

Post by andrewclunn » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

franciscop wrote: post #14

andrewclunn wrote: post #4

> The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and customs—ensure that their children are raised in stable homes. But actively undermine the norm for everyone else. Yep. If you were raised in poverty, the WORST thing you can do is listen to "approved" mainstream advice. That culture / media isn't there to help you, but to sell you things or make money on telling you what…

So I strongly disagree with that point, which could be based in cultures (specially in Spain where I have more experience seeing these things); I haven't seen enough of the mainstream USA advice, but for example I believe mainstream advice is still to get a degree in the USA, while if a degree costed $100k+ I believe in Spain it'd def not be mainstream advice and instead to tell people to strongly consider other alte…

Honest questions deserve honest answers. First, I am coming from a US-centric position (the article dealt with that, I am from the US, and the my response deals specifically with that culture... though Canadians likely would benefit from it too). As to education and degrees, there is a HUGE divergence in the types of degrees that are worth the money, and those which act more as institutional pyramid schemes. This distinction is well known on the example advice channel I recommended, but largely absent from mainstream culture.

As to what qualifies as mainstream culture, before the internet it was a clear delineation (based on broadcast and print), now there are perhaps tiers (and that's a broader conversation). One thing to note is that the more direct influence that institutional power has via gatekeeping (by directly promoting ideas through things like textbook publishers or narrowing discussion via tech censorship policies) the more the area caters to the desires of those in power, rather than those using / consuming the service. I steer clear of reddit myself because several times in the past when areas have become too divergent from "acceptable narrative" they have been closed down.

There's plenty more that could be said on this topic, but that would likely require a book on epistemology. Hope that answered your questions about my intentions and views at least.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#64

Post by notacoward » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:25 PM UTC

There must be psychological studies of giving up somewhere, as it seems to be an increasingly common behavior and not limited just to men and marriage. From the "economic anxiety" of the (especially rural) US right to the "millennial malaise" that's slightly left if anything, it seems like people are giving up on college, good jobs, buying a house, relationships, and most especially all forms of government. Across the political and economic spectrum, you can hear people calling to tear it all down. You don't hear the people just quietly "dropping out" but they definitely exist too.

Note that I'm not criticizing or looking down on people for giving up. It's a rational response when you believe that the standards are being set unrealistically high or you're going to be blamed/condemned no matter what you do. Why expend your energy on a lost cause? Save it for something you can win. I've done it myself, and called it strategic thinking. Everyone who has quit a job or broken off a relationship has given up. What I'm saying is only that it seems more common than it used to be. People turn to it more quickly. So called "deaths of despair" have been trending upward for quite some time. "Lottery or nothing" thinking (ahem crypto) is everywhere. For people at the margins, teetering on the very edge between giving up vs. hoping against hope and soldiering on even though they expect to fail, the balance seems to have shifted more toward giving up.

What I'd like to understand is why. Have circumstances really changed in a way that generates more despair than before? Are there messages we as a society are sending that encourage giving up instead of persevering? I don't have the answer, but it seems like a far more general phenomenon than just absent fathers and it's not limited to one political or economic group.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#65

Post by hardrcafe » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

what-the-grump wrote: post #51

rayiner wrote: post #3

This is an important read, especially this part. > This highly educated and affluent person prioritized stability for her own children. But refused to publicly endorse this value so that less fortunate children could also benefit from family stability. I’m from a rigidly socially conservative immigrant family that professes fashionably liberal values in public—imposing a double standard between “us” and “Americans.”…

Yay the patriarchy! :)

At least it has a track record of creating coherent, functioning civilization the world over since time immemorial.

Can’t say whatever we have today looks all that compelling, and I say this as a “winner” with a high salary, owned home, wife, and children.

I think of a future beyond my ability to retire to Margaritaville. What future lies for my daughters and sons?

A hedonist utopia that denigrates and denies the most basic human imperatives? To build a family? Why would I want that for them?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#66

Post by kevinventullo » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #39

Helitioo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to find a better reason why this happens. I don't believe it's liberal social values which are not lived by. First of I would believe it's an educational problem and second it's a 'who cares' problem. There are plenty of areas/ghettos of low income and low education around. The blog also contains the following: "The people with the most money and education—the class most responsible for shaping culture and cu…

They undermine it by: - claiming a single parent household is no worse for children than a two parent household - claiming men have no particular importance in the raising of children - financially supporting (in some cases subsidizing) single parent families

Do they? I can see the third bullet in practice, although I think it’s more of a fix than a cause for single-parent homes.

On the other hand, my social circle is highly educated and well-off and I’m not sure I know a single person who would agree with the first bullet.

The second point I’m less clear on myself: is there evidence that children of lesbian couples are somehow worse off?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#67

Post by jelly » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #11

A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate. Having children out of wedlock is a safety valve for broken institutions that keeps the birth rate higher in the US than comparable countries; that plus relatively open integration helps us maintain our economy, welfare state, pensions, etc. If we turned the screws on women and men to di…

All of those countries have changed their expectations of men and women regardless of traditional values, just check the female labor force participation rates, and have had a similar swell of directionless men.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#68

Post by karaterobot » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #11

A counter is that other countries (Japan, Korea, Italy, ...) that enforce traditional values have had a collapse in the birth rate. Having children out of wedlock is a safety valve for broken institutions that keeps the birth rate higher in the US than comparable countries; that plus relatively open integration helps us maintain our economy, welfare state, pensions, etc. If we turned the screws on women and men to di…

I don't buy that traditional values with regard to marriage are responsible with lower birth rates. People were married with high birthrates for hundreds of years, back when traditional values were just called values. Birth rates go down when people don't need a lot of children to work their farms or support them in old age, and when women get access to birth control and enter the workforce. This last part is tangentially related to marriage, but marriage (or the lack thereof) is not the cause. There are certainly other factors too, but those are the big ones.

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#69

Post by empathy_m » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

poszlem wrote: post #17

Rob Henderson also coined the term "luxury beliefs" which is one of the most apt name for something we've been witnessing lately ("defund the police" or "healthy at every size" or "marriage is just an oppressive institution of the patriarchy"). I highly recommend that other essay too https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

Is "you can have a two parent household with two full time jobs" also a luxury belief?

Re: No one expects young men to do anything and they are responding by doing nothing

#70

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sun, Apr 24, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #54

pydry wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defund the police blew up because certain communities' only experience of police is of being harassed, beaten and robbed. It's hardly an attitude that's dripping with privilege. The backlash, on the other hand...

Gallop: 81% of black Americans want police to spend same amount or more time in their area https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r... Defund the police is popular with nobody except rich liberals living in privilege bubbles. People in crime ridden areas especially don’t want it.

"Defund the police" is merely an agitational short slogan for "we need some other way of governing the safety of our communities, because this is clearly not working."

Like many short and pithy slogans, it may not be communicating that message effectively at all.

It's not like police forces are an eternal attribute of all civilizations. Modern policing is actually pretty young.